Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:30 pm Posts: 2535 Location: Perth
Vehicle: 93 Sierra
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:17 pm
Yep ... good luck with that
I actually don't disbelieve that they could get a Zook running on hydrogen and oxygen produced by electrolysis. That's possible.
What's not possible though is for the process to continue in the long term. More energy is required to break apart the molecular bonds of water than is released when the hydrogen molecules are burnt, so there's a net loss of energy in this system (which is lost as waste heat).
Pretty much that means that the alternator won't be able to charge the battery quick enough to replenish the electrical energy required to drive the electrolysis reaction. So eventually your battery goes flat, the electrolysis stops, the engine stops and you're caput.
Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 7:24 am Posts: 293 Location: sunshine coast
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:16 pm
Apparently we're about to start playing with hydrogen injection kits at work and testing a few results. In our case its a supplement though, only running something like 4% hydrogen from what the boss was saying. From what we've heard and read theres meant to be gains in fuel economy and power, the economy side i don't really agree with the theory that they're trying to sell (which is basically your ecu will adjust to the mixture and run less fuel) but im keen to see what difference it make power wise.
obviously wont be seeing hiclone style performance gains, but who knows, could be interesting!
anyone on here had any experience with hydrogen at all?
anyone on here had any experience with hydrogen at all?
I know the public transport buses that were being test fitted with hydrogen over here lasted all of 5 minutes due to 'reliability, performance issues', not sure what those issues were exactly but as far as I know they are using mostly CNG now instead.
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:30 pm Posts: 2535 Location: Perth
Vehicle: 93 Sierra
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:29 pm
Blueberry wrote:
Apparently we're about to start playing with hydrogen injection kits at work and testing a few results. In our case its a supplement though, only running something like 4% hydrogen from what the boss was saying. From what we've heard and read theres meant to be gains in fuel economy and power, the economy side i don't really agree with the theory that they're trying to sell (which is basically your ecu will adjust to the mixture and run less fuel) but im keen to see what difference it make power wise.
My dad made up a fairly tidy system as an experiment and installed it on his old VQ Caprice (5.0L V8). He had that car from new and swore that it made a measurable difference to fuel consumption on trips to Melbourne, which he and mum used to do quite regularly to visit my sister over there. I can confirm that with the system running it produced a constant stream of bubbles when the output hose was put under water.
Hydrogen assist is a different kettle of fish to straight hydrogen fueling. Hydrogen has a very high RON (>130) so if you add it to 91RON ULP then it is possible that the combined atomised product in-cylinder may be slightly higher than 91 RON. If you advance the ignition to suit (or have a car with a knock sensor that does it for you) then you can take advantage of the slower burn rate and develop more power for the same volume of fuel. Hydrogen in this scenario is almost acting like a catalyst, making another reaction occur more efficiently.
That's the very basic understanding I have in my head, but I could be wrong. I neither believe that it works or disbelieve it ... I'd have to run a heavily controlled experiment of my own or see some highly independent research from an authoritative source before I could believe that it was as effective as some people claim.
Apparently we're about to start playing with hydrogen injection kits at work and testing a few results.
My wifes ex is involved in one of these systems (he is the inventor) from what I understand - and thats not much it is a hydrogen generator that makes and injects the gas into diesel engines to supplement the diesel. It is aimed primarily at heavy industrial machinery like mining trucks- and has been tested in the USA by (I think) Caterpillar.
They have a V8 diesel landcruiser kicking around Perth with the system fitted as a long term test, and are in the process of setting up premises in Forrestfield (Dundas road?) for research, development and I am told that some components are being made in quantity already.
It will be interesting if it lives up to expectations- fuel savings alone on the mining trucks were pretty impressive.
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:30 pm Posts: 10453 Location: Perth, Australia
Vehicle: Jeep
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:38 pm
I think Hydrogen, is the best replacement for Fossil Fuels... we can use what we have now, with a few simple mods... some Fuel Stations, oversea's, even have a pumps with Hydrogen... but a hydrogen fuel cell would be the best way, they just need to make it more efficent, and cost effective, like LPG conversions, and it would be awesome... but i dont think the Oil companies will like it very much, unless they go into Hydrogen production... anyway, i would have my Zook on Hydrogen, if it cost around the same as LPG to convert...
there are two big obstacles to hydrogen power as I see it, -oil companies will fight it all the way, -government will be needing to get taxes from some other means- possibly bumping up registration and compulsory insurances or levies, much like they have done with LPG. I can remember when LPG and diesel were both dirt cheap compared to petrol- now there is little difference due to levies, duties and taxes(and bumped up profit margins.)
I look foreward to the time when hydrogen is viable as a replacement for petrol, even more so if you can produce your own instead of having to buy from oil companies.
stephen.
Last edited by missmyljdaze on Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Amaaazing - a zoom that runs with water in the washer bottle! Did you see that the supposed fuel on/off tap was connected to a piece of hose that went nowhere...
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:30 pm Posts: 2535 Location: Perth
Vehicle: 93 Sierra
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:04 pm
johnmath wrote:
Amaaazing - a zoom that runs with water in the washer bottle! Did you see that the supposed fuel on/off tap was connected to a piece of hose that went nowhere...
my boss used to run a supplementary system on his 105 series cruiser, with aftermarket turbo on the 1hz motor, wound the pump back slightly, but not much so he wasnt seeing fuel economy changes much but had much cleanee exhaust emissions and better power, only came off the car cos he sold it
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:30 pm Posts: 1009 Location: Sydney -ish
Vehicle: 92 Suzuki Sierra
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:15 am
missmyljdaze wrote:
there are two big obstacles to hydrogen power as I see it, -oil companies will fight it all the way, -government will be needing to get taxes from some other means- possibly bumping up registration and compulsory insurances or levies, much like they have done with LPG. I can remember when LPG and diesel were both dirt cheap compared to petrol- now there is little difference due to levies, duties and taxes(and bumped up profit margins.)
I look foreward to the time when hydrogen is viable as a replacement for petrol, even more so if you can produce your own instead of having to buy from oil companies.
stephen.
I think the other 'big ' problem is the fact you need vasts amount of energy to split hydrogen and oxygen from water. So you are still just as dependent on fossil fuels and a infrastructure that depends on it. I posted the link quickly up as i found it interesting it was a suzuki , not because i believe it to be feasible over long term.
The local servo now stocks E85, it should in theory be priced cheaper than it is currently selling at the pump, brazil went through similar issues in the 80's. Ethanol suppliers got greedy, people went back to petrol since they where no longer saving on milage, suppliers went bankrupt and cried for govement bailout. Now its more regulated. Why it interests me that its available locally is it makes the conversion more appealing. I can test it out etc without having to build my own still. If it works out then i can look at home fuel production. Please don't i have a 1.6l alcohol car in brazil, the stock power in it is noticebly better than other 1.6l petrol models of the same make.
we have (had?) hydrogen busses over here- havent seen them go past our place for a while- might have been moved to another route.
so I guess there must be a buss depot with hydrogen on tap in the northern suburbs of Perth, I also heard that one of our universities in Perth have a hydrogen supply- leftover from a project of some type, but dont know if thats true or not.
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:30 pm Posts: 731 Location: Townsville
Vehicle: 88 SWB WT Sierra soft top ute
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:37 pm
Santos wrote:
missmyljdaze wrote:
there are two big obstacles to hydrogen power as I see it, -oil companies will fight it all the way, -government will be needing to get taxes from some other means- possibly bumping up registration and compulsory insurances or levies, much like they have done with LPG. I can remember when LPG and diesel were both dirt cheap compared to petrol- now there is little difference due to levies, duties and taxes(and bumped up profit margins.)
I look foreward to the time when hydrogen is viable as a replacement for petrol, even more so if you can produce your own instead of having to buy from oil companies.
stephen.
I think the other 'big ' problem is the fact you need vasts amount of energy to split hydrogen and oxygen from water. So you are still just as dependent on fossil fuels and a infrastructure that depends on it.
This ^ won't save the world with the currently level of technology that exists.
Industrially they get hydrogen from methane. Running a combustion engine on hydrogen is a shit idea the amount over energy expended to get the hydrogen and then waste it all on heat. Hydrogen fuel cells is where its at.
There is something called "The Law Of Conservation Of Energy" - a fundamental principle of physics that means people who believe stories like this are suckers....
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it is a hydrogen generator that makes and injects the gas into diesel engines to supplement the diesel.
i have a 1.6l alcohol car in brazil, the stock power in it is noticebly better than other 1.6l petrol models of the same make.