[matt91112011]

Hi guys,

My G16B is pretty much clapped out now, so it's time for a rebuild. It's also TURBO TIME!

Things I already have:

T25 Turbo off an R32GTST (To big?)
Intercooler off an R32GTST(To big?)
Intercooler off an RX7
Exhaust Manifold off a CA18DET (Will be made to fit)

Things I think I need:

SARD Fuel Pressure Regulator
Full Engine Rebuild (Pistons, Rings, Rods, Full Gasket Set, Water Pump, Oil Pump)
Head Refreshed
Standalone ECU Unit (Will Discuss which one I need with the tuner)
Tuning
Exhaust (How big?)

I'm not after a racecar, but...

How much boost can I run reliably day in day out?

Where do I tap into the block for the oil feed on my Turbo?

What other things have I forgotten?

Should I run oversized pistons?

Do I get the head and exhaust flowed properly?

Anyone know a good tuner in Melbourne?

Cheers guys,

Matty

[Vits93]

Have you thought about using this turbo.

Quote:

VF33
The primary turbocharger used in the Subaru B4 is an IHI VF33 unit, which uses a 46.5/35.4mm 9-blade turbine wheel and a 47.0mm/35.4mm 6 + 6 blade compressor. At idle, the turbo spins at around 20,000 rpm and it can go on to a maximum speed of 190,000 rpm. It has a 17mm diameter wastegate opening to bypass excess exhaust gas. It utilizes a P11 exhaust housing and a divided thrust-bearing design.

[Gwagensteve]

I'll contribute my 2c.

Quote:

T25 Turbo off an R32GTST (To big?)

I'm going to say too big. I think the boost threshold will be far too high for a daily/offroad car. A stock CA18 turbo might be closer, but probably still a touch big.

Quote:

Intercooler off an R32GTST(To big?)
Intercooler off an RX7

No such thing as too big an intercooler.

Quote:

Exhaust Manifold off a CA18DET (Will be made to fit)

Fine.

Quote:

SARD Fuel Pressure Regulator

fine, but I think any quality adjustable regulator will do. I don't think there's any need for a rising rate reg, these are a workaround for those with a stock ECU trying to make more power.

Quote:

Full Engine Rebuild (Pistons, Rings, Rods, Full Gasket Set, Water Pump, Oil Pump)
Head Refreshed

Fine. In my opinion you will want to drop static compression ratio to help hold the motor together. I'd also consider starting out with a coil pack motor. It's likely to be easier to tune.

Quote:

Exhaust (How big?)

I'd say 2.25" - 2.5" but really who cares - this is such a minor issue compared to the work you have ahead. The dump pipe you buy and modify to fit will likely dictate the rest of the exhaust size.

Quote:

How much boost can I run reliably day in day out?

Consensus seems to be 6psi

Quote:

Where do I tap into the block for the oil feed on my Turbo?

Can't help there.

Quote:

Should I run oversized pistons?

The condition of your block and the pistons available to you for a decompressed application will dictate this.

Quote:

Do I get the head and exhaust flowed properly?

Can't see any point. THe G16B head flows well and the whole point of boost is that you don't need to maximise every tiny bit of flow - the boost pressure takes care of the flow restrictions within reason.

Quote:

Anyone know a good tuner in Melbourne?

Can't help.

However, I'm sure you can see that that's a whole chunk of money.

Whilst it might be an interesting project to build a turbo motor from scratch, I honestly don't think anyone has ever built a reliable, daily driven turbo vitara motor. I'm sure it's possible, but I think that eventually these projects just bleed the owner dry when subjected to daily driving.

I'm going to suggest avoiding all the heartache and starting with a factory turbo motor, such as a 3SGTE, 4G63, CA18 or SR20. In fact, you could probably buy a donor motor for less than the dyno tuning bill alone with a G16B turbo project, and you will achieve your HP goal (I assume you have one) without ending up with a fragile money pit.

The configuration Vitara engine and gearbox mounts makes a conversion easy.

Steve.

[bagnkat]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Quote:

Intercooler off an R32GTST(To big?)
Intercooler off an RX7

No such thing as too big an intercooler.

I have very limited knowledge of turbo systems Steve, so I defer to your knowledge in this regard, but I do have a question regarding this. I was under the impression that you could have too large an intercooler (not so much surface area, rather volume), resulting in excessive time to compress/boost the air in the intercooler, leading to poor driveability. Is this not the case or have I missed something?

Not being pedantic - just trying to understand.

[Daves4wd]

For oil pressure I think you tap it off the oil presure switch and tuner there's a good one in Dandy cant teenager what he's called but wolf3d computers is next door I'll ask my mate when I see him

[Gwagensteve]

bagnkat wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

Quote:

Intercooler off an R32GTST(To big?)
Intercooler off an RX7

No such thing as too big an intercooler.

I have very limited knowledge of turbo systems Steve, so I defer to your knowledge in this regard, but I do have a question regarding this. I was under the impression that you could have too large an intercooler (not so much surface area, rather volume), resulting in excessive time to compress/boost the air in the intercooler, leading to poor driveability. Is this not the case or have I missed something?

Not being pedantic - just trying to understand.

I am aware of this as a theory, but look at it this way. Cooler inlet air = more power for free. A small (and trust me, it's going to be VERY small) reduction in on/off throttle lag vs more power and less stress on the engine? I'll take the latter.

There is some really good tech on this in the current issue of Hot Rod magazine.

Steve.

[Blueberry]

Are you sure the turbo you have is a skyline turbo?
T25 turbos are the factory spec for ca18det's and early sr20's which were upgraded later to t28's.

If it is a skyline turbo then like steve said, you wont have a very efficient setup for offroad work.
If its a T25 then that's a good start and would be my pick for a 1.6.

[Fatzook]

Even a T25 is too big IMO. In skyline trim, you'll be lucky to see any tangable amount of boost under 3500rpm.

For an offroad driven sierra my pic would be a Garret GT22.

[sogone]

Why not start with a 4agze out of a charged corolla or mr2? Forged bottom end. Awesome power. Made to be boosted. And can be made to fit fairly pain free.

[stocker]

Hi guys, Just saw this topic and throw in my 2c, as i have done alot of research work with my G16B and turbo'ing to that effect.

I almost completely agree with steve, on the matter.

Turbo'ing a G16b isn't just something like slapping a turbo to the side of it and watching it grow, there is still alot of R&D works that need doing
before the motor becomes a viable reliable "daily driver"

Im glad your thinking of starting with a fresh motor. my suggestion to you would be that you talk to a reputable engine builder.
let him know of what you are doing and see what they can do for you. with Regards to Lowering the Compression ratio. This will
Help with the longevity of the motor. Higher compression ratio motors aren't ideal to turbo, so the lower you can get that ratio the better
off you and your motor will be... with regards to longevity.

I think the turbo you will be running maybe a little on the large side for the prospective boost you will be running. to run 6psi - 10psi through a T25, the resultant will be a Larger turbo (designed to run 10 - 12 pound for mid range RPM off a 6cyl) Spooling up slow. if it was power your after then maybe, but in reality your looking for a vast increase in Low - Mid range torque. therefor you want something that will be 'on boost' @ around 2000rpm and providing forced induction around 1400 - 1500rpm mark. From the research that i have done, i came to the conclusion that something along the lines of a GT22 (Garrett) if you don't want to spend the money like that. then a VF22 (Small TD04) off any RS Liberty (they just have a funny shaped flange like a triangle, but there are thousands of them). or even a TD04 off a Mitsubishi VR4 Galant. TD04 Out of a mitsubishi Delica or Turbo Pajero.

Basically the message im trying to convey is that you don't have to buy a garrett turbo, or top of the range if you will if this is a budget build. there are thousands of variants of the TD04 out there. whether they be out of a Subaru, Mitsubishi etc... that would be more suitable to your needs.

I have spilled my guts on the things you would need on a turbo build in a thread before so im not going to bore you all with that info again. if you want to look it up search for it.

As to whether i think its a viable build.
Im in two minds, in one hand, there are a couple of Viable engine swaps that would negate the need to turbo the Vit.
Like
Commonwhore V6 Motor Swap - Plenty of power, and relatively fuel efficent, Cheap as chips for them too. you could probably get the motor, loom, ECU etc. for under 600 dollar. Just need the time and expertise to put it in. then adapting it up is the next hard bit. Max has the best build thread on it that i've seen so far
SR20DET - they are a little long but i believe they can be made to fit and again adapting it up.
G13BB-T - i know it seems strange, but perhaps building a motor that has been turbo'ed thousands of times before could be the answer.
4AGE / 4AGZE - Strong reliable, and has been done before (in sierra's)

The Other mind that i am in, is that you Turbo the 1.6, do the R&D and see where it goes... but be mindful This carries an Inherent risk of leaving you with a Broken motor after putting alot of money into getting it rebuilt.

If your going to do it, Do it properly which ever way you go

and don't forget to have some fun whilst doing it

[buzbox]

With an engine conversion, you'd be spending pretty much more than what you payed for the car. So what I'm doing is refreshing the engine that's in there and MAYBE having an aftermarket cam shaft added in the mix.

Cheap, reliable, straight forward.

[stocker]

buzbox wrote:

With an engine conversion, you'd be spending pretty much more than what you payed for the car. So what I'm doing is refreshing the engine that's in there and MAYBE having an aftermarket cam shaft added in the mix.

Cheap, reliable, straight forward.

Lucky its not your vehicle that the modifications are being done too then

[atari4x4]

[canberramav]

Doing it all properly is going to cost you $$. No 2 ways about it.

There are other power up options as mentioned like the 4agze and SR20 etc. Ive had the 4agze and it was nothing but problems and was far from cheap. the problems of using other engines just present themselves in different places. The can be sorted obviously with trial and error just like boosting your zook.

I can give you pics wherever you need them of oil pickups i used and anything else you may need to know.


I cant really comment on the reliabilty of a turbo on the G16b as my turbo motor has only seen about 48 hours or so run time if i were to add it up. I did blow a head gasket in this time but that was to no fault of the engine. A dodgy hose caused this.

I think the talk of 6psi being the safe level of boost is what people are running with standard ECU. The gains from running 6psi would be pretty good without having to go to higher boost.

I have my rev limiter set at 5500rpm to be on the safe side.

On my comp truck with 31s i can smoke the tyres 1st and 2nd gear all the way down the road no worries. Thats with an auto and 6.5 transfer gears.

I think you would get away with running a T25. Mine is a T28 and is prob too big but it was free and with my application its not too bad.

There is a guy getting around Canberra with a boosted Vitara and he drives it daily. Its holding together fine. Goes really well too.

If you want to boost you G16 then go for it. Just be prepared to fork out $$ for good tune and good a strong motor.

I would budget for about $6000 if i were you.

[Chop]

Did you do anything to the gearing in this?

[jonfromhamilton]

I have a related question about making your engine windy... will this break your t-case gears or gearbox or whatever?
how much torque can you run through gearing before they go boom and your $800 gears turn into shiney cereal.

[matt91112011]

Hi guys,

Thanks a lot for all your replies. Sorry for the late reply I've been busy all day till now.

The reason for not going down the engine swap route is simply because I don't want to run into problems if it gets defected (which it has been twice). It will be easier to revert it back to stock if need be. Also there are just so many problems with engine conversions, like which gearbox?

canberramav, how much boost is your truck running? I already have half of the things, I need. Plus I have a friend who owns a workshop, so he is doing the build. Tuning will be the expensive part of my whole setup.

Thanks guys,

I'll let you know when the fun begins!

Matty

[Gwagensteve]

Matt, with all due respect, I think you want the idea of the "drama" of a turbo. Trying to get reliable, streetable power out of an atmo engine with a turbo conversion is the most expensive and time consuming way of achieving your horsepower goal.

A) How much torque do you want. (forget HP, that's just torqueXrpm) I don't actually think my G16B lacks torque at all. What's your goal? Do you have any idea what the effect of that torque figure is likely to be on your clutch, gearbox, transfer case chain, rear axles, front diff? If you really need 240Nm of torque to do the job, the rest of the car can't do the job you need 240Nm to do.

B) Regardless of which engine you choose or how you go about adding boost, It's going to be very difficult to clear a defect, and you're going to have more $ in the car than it is worth. Even with a G16B turbo, The car is going to have a different fuel system, exhaust system, an intercooler, it's going to be wired for an aftermarket ECU, so you'd have to pull that all out and put a stock ECU in, or retune the car atmo, so effectively, you're redoing a whole engine conversion. I vote you'll pull the car apart and sell it because you won't have the cash to clear the defect.

If you're going to tip $6K (and it WILL cost this.) Into your car and drive it around waiting for it to be taken off the road for you is daft. Talk to an engineer and work out what you can legally do. At this stage, it's free.

Make a list of your requirements (torque/hp). Then have a look at the available factory engines that make these numbers. Some might be turbo, some might not be. Some might have easy gearbox options (J20, H20, H25, H27, as examples) some might need adapters (SR20-C4?), but many will come with desirable gearboxes and transfer cases.

Honestly, if you can't contemplate an engine/gearbox/transfer conversion, I don't think you can contemplate a turbo conversion. Changing engine/gearbox mounts and tailshafts is easy compared to tuning an aftermarket ECU for cold start (or the cost of paying someone do to it)

I'll add, there's never been a factory turbo petrol 4WD sold in Australia. There is good reason for this.

Steve.

[matt91112011]

Thanks for your info Steve.

I dont' have a torque figure as such, just enough. I honestly just want it to be streetable with 33's, it's only got 31's on it now and it's horrible! I feel like I might as well get out and push sometimes, haha.

I'm sure my driveline will be fine with boost and if it isn't I'll worry about it then, whenever something breaks on my car I always replace it with something better and stronger.

I'm good at clearing defects, had plenty on all my cars across the years, it won't be that hard to revert back to stock, I had to pull my whole Calmini lift out 2 months ago, not to mention the rest of the things that had to be done. Cooler piping and ecu's are easy to pull out. I'll keep all my factory stuff.

Thanks again.

Matty

[atari4x4]

hahaha, what are you doing wrong to be defected twice in such a short time?

[Fatzook]

100kw will make for a very steetable vitara on 33's. IMO you should look into a 4AGE conversion. Same capacity, and depending on which one you pick, power ranges from 84kw to 125kw, with torque from 131Nm to 210Nm in the GZE.

Heaps of aftermarket parts available, and because the motor comes from the factory with that much power, it is completely reliable ( assuming the conversion is done properly)

[matt91112011]

atari4x4 wrote:

hahaha, what are you doing wrong to be defected twice in such a short time?

Need flares, I've got 65mm of tyre hanging out on each side lol

[matt91112011]

Fatzook wrote:

100kw will make for a very steetable vitara on 33's. IMO you should look into a 4AGE conversion. Same capacity, and depending on which one you pick, power ranges from 84kw to 125kw, with torque from 131Nm to 210Nm in the GZE.

Heaps of aftermarket parts available, and because the motor comes from the factory with that much power, it is completely reliable ( assuming the conversion is done properly)

Defects scare me, I don't want to go through the pain and ridiculous cost of engineering it because I know a motor will be harder to pull out than cooler piping and a turbo, if all goes bad, lol. I got quoted $2500 just to get my Calmini lift engineered, lol

Matty

[atari4x4]

so you didn't learn the first time? fit some flares FFS & you'll stop getting pulled up for something so simple.

you want to run 33's? i'd be looking at fixing the gearing first, there is a mob in pakistan or somewhere that do a 5.8:1 or similar... will be HEAPS cheaper than turboing but won't pull the bitches like a blow off valve does.

[Fatzook]

matt91112011 wrote:

Defects scare me,

Then get your junk engineered

[atari4x4]

Fatzook wrote:

matt91112011 wrote:

Defects scare me,

Then get your junk engineered

but he continues to drive around with no flares

[canberramav]

See if Oozuk can throw a few comments your way.

He has had his boosted for a fair while. See if he has had any problems. Im happy with mine but its early days as far as reliability. Its seems fine though and the tuner seems to think its pretty safe. Im running 12 pound of boost.

Chicks dig cars that dose. The haters asre just jealous

[matt91112011]

Haha, nah, it wasn't too bad. Cost me time more than anything to get them cleared, needed a full RWC.

My junks to big to get engineered!

Lol, yeah ill be fitting a big dose pipe, I'll be beating chicken away.

12psi is heaps! Apparently after 15psi rods start looking like bananas!

Trying to o get hold of him, he hasn't gotten back to me yet

Matty

[matt91112011]

matt91112011 wrote:

Lol, yeah ill be fitting a big dose pipe, I'll be beating chicken away.

Bloody autocorrect!

[Fatzook]

matt91112011 wrote:

Trying to o get hold of him, he hasn't gotten back to me yet

Matty

He works in PNG, and his thing is FAR from a daily drive. Not sure how much wheeling it actually sees these days, but with family time being so important when he is actually at home, my guess would be not alot.