Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:13 pm Posts: 519 Location: Tasmania
Vehicle: SAS'd Vitara on 35's
Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:01 pm
I looked at turboing mine with just 33's. But once i looked into the cost/ problems/ R&D/ output power/ and overall gain versus hastle, I decided Commodore V6.
As Vitara running gear struggles coping with just larger tyres, i knew it wouldnt cope with much more power also.
Thats why i replaced it all together.
I have plenty of power and torque to turn the 35's, The driveline is all reasonably strong and up to the task, and it is geared for both highway and wheeling.
And Matt, i really dont think your Junk is too big to be Engineered
I honestly just want it to be streetable with 33's, it's only got 31's on it now and it's horrible!
So that 100% confirms you don't need a turbo, you need gearing.
Why do I say that? Well, by my calculation you'll be running at about 2600-2700rpm at 100km/h on 33's. Therefore you'l want your boost threshold to be somewhere around 2400rpm. That's very low, and with off the shelf engine management, conventional turbos, no VVT etc, you're going to struggle to get the boost in that low and still have boost at the redline.
More power has never, ever been a substitute for a lack of gearing. You need a sierra transfer case, 5.7 diff gears, or something.
Quote:
I'm sure my driveline will be fine with boost and if it isn't I'll worry about it then, whenever something breaks on my car I always replace it with something better and stronger.
Sure, that's what people normally do, but it only works if you can get stronger stuff. What happens when you break a gearbox, transfer case, or rear diff/axles, all of which are likely. Can you get a stronger rear diff with a 5.12 ratio? Sadly, no. Can you get a stronger gearbox that bolts to your G16? No, unless you go for a built trimatic and have to look very hard at gearing (and an auto rebuild/strengthen) or an AW-4 and work out how to shift it, move the transfer case/driveshafts etc. You can put a stronger transfer behind the G16 gearbox, (hilux) but that's a lot of money and work to be left with small gearbox trying to do the job of a big one.
The amount of power a 4WD can deal with is dictated by the strength of its driveline.
Whilst a freaking HATE commodore V6's, they have a huge saving grace if you want to build something retarded - they have a strong, well geared, and very adaptable auto. The T700R4 can be adapted to any transfer case you care to think of - hilux, patrol, LT230, and anything North American. If you build a driveline that can take power then you have a useable car. If you build a hot motor that breaks the car you have a broken car on your front garden.
I really, really don't think you've thought this through. This project will break you financially. Gear your car right and give the motor the opportunity to work properly.
Please forgive me if you think I'm being negative, but I've seen many, many people before you think they can do what you are planning, and it's nearly always ended in an unfinished project once the owner has broken some motors and run out of money.... or just run out of money when they get the tuning quote, or run out of money when the engine grenades on the dyno because it wasn't assembled right.
I'd even look at a 3.9 Rover V8/ZF auto/LT230 before I considered turboing a G16B for your application. Why? Because the ZF auto and LT230 are very, very strong and will live happily with daily use, and that combination is very cheap - probably cheaper than buying just the adapters to put a hilux case behind a T700, or the tuning bill for the G16 project.
To get it in perspective:
3.9 V8 - 140Kw, 320Nm in late model guise Commodore v6: 140Kw, 305Nm (or so)
Good luck getting those outputs reliably out of a turbo G16B, especially in the rev ranges either of those motors deliver their torque at.
Anyways, you've clearly got your heart set on a turbo G16 project. Make sure you write it all up in a build thread to prove wrong those of us who think it's not feasible.
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:05 am Posts: 241 Location: Eltham, Victoria
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:55 pm
Hahaha....
Steve, I looked at the undertaker thing, but won't my drive shafts be on funny angles? Remember I've got a SWB vit. The rear uni's already struggle, if I took 4.5inches off it again, surely that would be a bad idea?
I don't like automatics, I like manuals. Low range sells stronger axles and an adapter for a hilux gearbox I'm pretty sure.
100kw will make for a very steetable vitara on 33's. IMO you should look into a 4AGE conversion. Same capacity, and depending on which one you pick, power ranges from 84kw to 125kw, with torque from 131Nm to 210Nm in the GZE.
Heaps of aftermarket parts available, and because the motor comes from the factory with that much power, it is completely reliable ( assuming the conversion is done properly)
Defects scare me, I don't want to go through the pain and ridiculous cost of engineering it because I know a motor will be harder to pull out than cooler piping and a turbo, if all goes bad, lol. I got quoted $2500 just to get my Calmini lift engineered, lol
Matty
By the time you build a turbo kit and route the intercooler piping, I'd personally say it'd be the same effort to remove an engine. Suzuki's aren't the biggest of engine bays...
In all honesty cobber, putting a factory boosted engine like previously mentioned, and getting it engineered is the easiest way forward. It will be RELIABLE and LEGAL.
If not I can see yet another half assed project being parted out due to realisation smacking you in the face.
I've had no experience building a turbo offroad setup, but a friend of mine and myself built a turbo setup for my streeter (mk2 GTi swift) and obviously being the g13b engine, with a T28 currently on that, It makes boost at 2900, on full boost at 3500, but is absolutely useless under that. Gearing offroad I'd assume would help keep it up on song, but I'm not sure what the necessity of that would be for you.
There is yarns on here of g16b's falling apart unless big bickies are thrown at them with every intention of being boosted, I honestly think your better off doing an engine conversion.
Steve, I looked at the undertaker thing, but won't my drive shafts be on funny angles? Remember I've got a SWB vit. The rear uni's already struggle, if I took 4.5inches off it again, surely that would be a bad idea?
I don't like automatics, I like manuals. Low range sells stronger axles and an adapter for a hilux gearbox I'm pretty sure.
Cheers
Matty
All due respect and all.... but
If you think working out how to fix uni joint angles is too hard, you're not ready to troubleshoot a turbo conversion. If you think working out how to fix uni joint angles/shorten driveshafts is too hard, you're not ready to swap in a hilux gearbox. Do some research on vitara diffs and 33's, and on "HD" axles for vitaras. Vitaras can and do break axles with stock gearing, stock power and 33's.
I'm going to assume you already realise you will need hilux front axles and a steel/26 spline front diff to cope with 33's and boost.
This is all irrelevant though. More power doesn't fix incorrect gearing. You can build the hektikist turbo motor ever seen in a vitara, but if you aren't well past the boost threshold at your (too low) cruise RPM it might as well be a stock G16B. The thing is, a stock G16B has plenty of torque to drive your car if you let it work in the right rev range with the correct gearing. I know this because I have a G16B in a car that runs much bigger, heavier tyres than your car (and at a guess weighs more too) and it drives fine, because it's revving 1000rpm higher than what you're planning.
IMHO There are VERY GOOD reasons to run an auto behind a powerful boosted engine. It softens the hit on the driveline, and allows you to control boost independent of wheel speed. This is VERY important to avoid ending up in a torque hole off boost. you're
Anyways, it seems like you're committed to this project - after all you own a turbo that's too big, an intercooler that's too small and a turbo manifold that doesn't fit. Show us how it's done.
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 8:30 pm Posts: 2214 Location: Brisbane
Vehicle: SQ625
Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:59 am
I think the rear shaft would be getting real short with the undertaker in a swb U could build a new crossmember and drop the tc down like 50mm might help a lot Pull the tc out and put a sierra one in with gears
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:19 am Posts: 492
Vehicle: 1.3 Tin Top
Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:43 pm
As to the size of the intercooler...
There is no such thing as too big but there is a point at which an intercooler becomes less efficient, with regards to turbo repsonse and lag.
A massive front mount off a small turbo will be equate to greater lag. the turbo has a much greater volume of air to compress. when u take into consideration the volume of the cores and the volume of piping it all adds up.
Whereas a smaller top mount, while they do not cool as well, will give much greater turbo response. less volume to compress = faster compression.
If ur only running moderate boost <8psi a smallish intercooler sufficient, IF set up correctly ie placement. a fan for low speed stuff is also a good idea another option is water sprayer.
Keeping piping as short as possible will help aswell and using the correct diameter. ( as small as possible without restriction)
All Sierra transfer cases have an indirect high range. Generally 1.409 or 1.55:1
Fitting a Sierra case is a fabrication job. You will need to remove your existing transfer case and make custom mounts to mount the divorced sierra case. Also, the rear output of a Sierra case is offset, so the driveshaft angles get funky.
You could use a kicker to join the vitara case to the Sierra case.
Either way it's quite complex. There's plenty of fabrication involved.
All Sierra transfer cases have an indirect high range. Generally 1.409 or 1.55:1
Fitting a Sierra case is a fabrication job. You will need to remove your existing transfer case and make custom mounts to mount the divorced sierra case. Also, the rear output of a Sierra case is offset, so the driveshaft angles get funky.
You could use a kicker to join the vitara case to the Sierra case.
Either way it's quite complex. There's plenty of fabrication involved.
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:30 pm Posts: 246 Location: glasshouse mtns
Vehicle: 1995 soft top vitara
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:43 pm
Go ahead and turbo charge it. Everyone on here says that its not worth doing the conversion, I think the g16b is great for it. Mine has done 10000ks without a problem, running 12-14psi doesn't run hot making a little over 200rwhp. Hasn't dropped any compression, engine runs smooth as.
I could sell you a complete package, front mount to exhaust. Car has been rolled, drive line was not affected. Pm me if interested
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