[zooky08]

What's every ones thoughts about a rear mounted radiator. A few guys of here run one.
I'm after a bit more room at the front and I can run a winch further back and above the diff.
I have lots of 1.5" stainless tube I could use and I can run it down the chassis rails.
will be mounted against the back of a cab on x bracing of the cage. Is a g16a water pump enough to pump the water around?
Or will I need some kind of external pump setup.

What's the pros and cons for running a radiator in the back.

Cheers

[SierraDan]

Need electric also to help pump back to motor.

[2stroker]

Yeah the one that I have seen ran a Davis Craig electric pumps but I am sure there are plenty of other brands.

[zooky08]

So will the WP pump water to the radiator. And have a electric one to pump it back to the engine.
or do I have to run two pumps. It's problems a hole different story but our speedway cars don't run any pump at all but I guess falcon WP is alot bigger

[atari4x4]

have a look through Gwagen's build thread, he successfully runs a rear mount radiator & i think he's running 1 maybe 2 EWP's

[want33s]

I have seen a few VW Kombi's with Subaru turbo motors in them. They all have front mount radiators and just use the standard Subaru water pump.
Check OL.. There is an identical thread going there.

[canberramav]

You will need a EWP or you will overheat. Standard g16 pump won't be up to the task. We have done exactly this on a mates comp truck running a commodore v6 radiator in the rear. No need for 2 EWP's.

We have put the pump at the back of the car gravity fed by the bottom radiator hose. These pumps will not like having to suck water and will flog out if not fed the water.

[SuziBlu]

Im gunna be doing this, rear mount radiator.

Small thought, stainless pipes, copper or ally radiator, connected to steel chassis etc, what about electrolysis, how do you combat that ?

Do you hook the G16 wp in series with the EWP or discontinue use of the stock WP ?

[Fatzook]

SuziBlu wrote:

Im gunna be doing this, rear mount radiator.

Small thought, stainless pipes, copper or ally radiator, connected to steel chassis etc, what about electrolysis, how do you combat that ?

Do you hook the G16 wp in series with the EWP or discontinue use of the stock WP ?

Mount everything with rubber isolation blocks.

Mount lines with STAUFF clamps or similar.

[just_cruizin]

It's a closed system so only one EWP will be required. Where in the system you put it is up to you, I would force feed the radiator. Not sure what style of pump these are but it won't starve regardless of where you put it, it will supply itself.

Run it off a temp switch though so it only runs at operating temps

[SuziBlu]

Thanks mate, we use these all the time on boats, mostly to hold hydraulic hard pipes, should have thought about them doh.

[canberramav]

just_cruizin wrote:

It's a closed system so only one EWP will be required. Where in the system you put it is up to you, I would force feed the radiator. Not sure what style of pump these are but it won't starve regardless of where you put it, it will supply itself.

Run it off a temp switch though so it only runs at operating temps

It can starve in the top radiator hose and makes the system very hard to bleed. What's going to push the water from the radiator to the engine if you mount the EWP on the return?

It can be done your way iit's not as efficient.

No need for temp switch. Run it all the time.

[Fatzook]

canberramav wrote:

No need for temp switch. Run it all the time.

I agree. Only the thermo fans need be controlled by temp switch. If the EWP is turned off, the mech pump will be under more load.

[just_cruizin]

If the thermostat is closed its not going to flow is it.

I didn't recommend it be run on the top hose, I said it doesn't really matter if the thermostat is open. Yes it would be better post radiator (cooler, meaning seals will last longer assuming the are buna, not viton) and it at the furtherest point from the other pump.

As I said not sure what style of pump these are, assume a small vane pump, can't be matched to the engine vortex pump ( running at engine revs, all over the place v's fixed rate) so they will be all over the place flow wise anyways.

It can't starve, it's a closed pressurized system

[canberramav]

just_cruizin wrote:

If the thermostat is closed its not going to flow is it.

I didn't recommend it be run on the top hose, I said it doesn't really matter if the thermostat is open. Yes it would be better post radiator (cooler, meaning seals will last longer assuming the are buna, not viton) and it at the furtherest point from the other pump.

As I said not sure what style of pump these are, assume a small vane pump, can't be matched to the engine vortex pump ( running at engine revs, all over the place v's fixed rate) so they will be all over the place flow wise anyways.

It can't starve, it's a closed pressurized system

If your force feeding the radiator as you say it would need to be on the top radiator hose between the engine and the radiator. This wont work very well when your trying to bleed the radiator.

It really needs to be on bottom hose close to the radiator (for best performance)

The EWP will move alot more water than the standard engine pump. Maybe you have your fans and water pump facts mixed up?

The pump can starve with the setup on the top hose because thats where there will be cavitation. It takes ages to bleed the system setup like this (believe me we did it) you will get air for ages. Until the thermostat opens and its bled properly the pump will be starved.

[zooky08]

The ewp I've been looking at has 80l/min rate, so if I run it close to the radiator at the bottom hose it should pump the water back to the engine. That's pretty much the answer I need.

Hey canberramav do you,run you piping down the chassis rail?

[canberramav]

zooky08 wrote:

The ewp I've been looking at has 80l/min rate, so if I run it close to the radiator at the bottom hose it should pump the water back to the engine. That's pretty much the answer I need.

Hey canberramav do you,run you piping down the chassis rail?

I found it hard with all the other crap under my car to find room so i ran the lines through the cab.




I used this to minimise the amount of joins. I figured less joins less problems.

[31zook]

You can also buy rad hose by the meter. This would be what I would do so that I could keep it all up nice and high, run it where I wanted and move it easily if something changed.

[canberramav]

The water hose is way stronger. I would sleeve the radiator hose if you get that by the meter.

The water delivery hose is so strong I use it as a dog toy for my APBT

[TZAR]

canberramav wrote:

zooky08 wrote:

The ewp I've been looking at has 80l/min rate, so if I run it close to the radiator at the bottom hose it should pump the water back to the engine. That's pretty much the answer I need.

Hey canberramav do you,run you piping down the chassis rail?

I found it hard with all the other crap under my car to find room so i ran the lines through the cab. I also used this

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Rubber-Water ... 414cb4f080


I used this to minimise the amount of joins. I figured less joins less problems.

From the ad on Ebay

Temperature range of operation: -25 degrees C to 75 degrees C

You must have some of that super cool radiator water cost most run about 95 degrees. I have seen someone use the right pressure rated hose but the wrong temp rating and the ran it through the cab on the psseneger side of the tunnel and it blew right next to the passeneger. It was sheilded yes, but open at the bottom so when it blew it sprayed down, hit the floor and covered the passenger in boiling hot water. Third degree burns leave bad scars.

I am confused but with all the shit you have dribbled in here that wouldnt be hard.

Just-cruisin said " closed pressurised system" so that means it CANNOT caviatate unless there is a flaw in your design. Which I think there may be. Bottom radiator hoses have springs in them to stop them sucking in when the engine revs making pump spin faster. If you use the RIGHT hose then you will never have a problem. If you try and suck back through a TOP radiator hose then of course it will suck in .

And put some air bleeds in. Its not hard. Really its not. dont just try and bleed it through the cap.

And yes I have done about ten or fifteen rear radiators in my time, so I have made my fair share of mistakes in this department and fixed them all too. Most of the time we just used BRAND NEW exhaust pipe bent up by a muffler shop then we could weld tab on easy to make mount and we used a little jenny roller to make the lips on the end and tried to use standard hoses so it was EASY to get replacement part when you need it.

[canberramav]

TZAR wrote:

canberramav wrote:

zooky08 wrote:

The ewp I've been looking at has 80l/min rate, so if I run it close to the radiator at the bottom hose it should pump the water back to the engine. That's pretty much the answer I need.

Hey canberramav do you,run you piping down the chassis rail?

I found it hard with all the other crap under my car to find room so i ran the lines through the cab. I also used this

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Rubber-Water ... 414cb4f080


I used this to minimise the amount of joins. I figured less joins less problems.

From the ad on Ebay

Temperature range of operation: -25 degrees C to 75 degrees C

You must have some of that super cool radiator water cost most run about 95 degrees. I have seen someone use the right pressure rated hose but the wrong temp rating and the ran it through the cab on the psseneger side of the tunnel and it blew right next to the passeneger. It was sheilded yes, but open at the bottom so when it blew it sprayed down, hit the floor and covered the passenger in boiling hot water. Third degree burns leave bad scars.

I am confused but with all the shit you have dribbled in here that wouldnt be hard.

Just-cruisin said " closed pressurised system" so that means it CANNOT caviatate unless there is a flaw in your design. Which I think there may be. Bottom radiator hoses have springs in them to stop them sucking in when the engine revs making pump spin faster. If you use the RIGHT hose then you will never have a problem. If you try and suck back through a TOP radiator hose then of course it will suck in .

And put some air bleeds in. Its not hard. Really its not. dont just try and bleed it through the cap.

And yes I have done about ten or fifteen rear radiators in my time, so I have made my fair share of mistakes in this department and fixed them all too. Most of the time we just used BRAND NEW exhaust pipe bent up by a muffler shop then we could weld tab on easy to make mount and we used a little jenny roller to make the lips on the end and tried to use standard hoses so it was EASY to get replacement part when you need it.

The link I put up is not what I used I made a mistake. Ill remove the link so no one gets the wrong stuff.

If you want to pay top dollars getting an exhaust shop to make up lines then go for it.

What I wrote makes perfect sense to me.

Where do you put the pump tsar seeing that your such a world of experience?

[canberramav]

You get cavitation because the air continues to make its way up to the highest point because you have put the pump in the wrong place and it's a shit to bleed.

There is no need for multiple bleed points like you mentioned. Once it's bled properly of coarse you won't get cavitation unless there is something not right.

Thanks captain obvious for pointing out the obvious way to run pipe under the car. Like I said I couldn't fit it under mine.

As for spares I just need the same as what you mentioned.

My bottom radiator hose didn't have a wire coil in it. Can't think of a single Sierra I've owned that did?

[want33s]

TZAR wrote:

Just-cruisin said " closed pressurised system" so that means it CANNOT caviatate

Cavitation has little to do with air in the system, it can and does happen to boat props 20 feet underwater.

Cavitation is the process where air is forced out of the water by rapid pressure changes...
I have seen several trawler and large boat propellors that have sustained severe damage by this.

Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation

[SuziBlu]

Cavitation is not caused by air/water interference.

Jas, that sort of explains it, but mostly it is from the propellor trying to push more water than it is being supplied, going from ahead to hard astern is where it is commonly felt, this creates vacumes and is very violent and destructive.

Bad hull design is the most common cause, propellor size and design also large player.

[just_cruizin]

canberramav wrote:

Maybe you have your fans and water pump facts mixed up?

The pump can starve with the setup on the top hose because thats where there will be cavitation. It takes ages to bleed the system setup like this (believe me we did it) you will get air for ages. Until the thermostat opens and its bled properly the pump will be starved.

Given my employment history I don't think I have anything 'mixed' up. Centrifugal Pumps, PD pumps, metering pumps, vacuum pumps, recip compressors, centrifugal compressors worked with them all. fans? No leave that to the low pressure boys.

For the record typically certrifugal pumps may cavitate in either of two ways, both involve running outside their designed range. either you will get 'eye' cavitation from running at either too high a pressure and low flow or 'tip' cavitation running at too high a flow rate with no head of pressure, both of these affect the impeller. Both happen on the back of the impeller in an area of low pressure and it's the when the pressure drops to the vapour pressure of the liquid and vapour bubbles are formed, the actual damage is caused when these bubbles implode back into liquid state, the force is enough to remove material from the impellor. Nuff said

I was wrong in my assumption that the EWP was a vane pump, the Davis Craig is actually a centrifugal pump and if you check their website you can see the pump curve they operate along, depending on pressure. Yes, they don't prime so they do need to be mounted at the lowest, or near to, point on the system. To or from the radiator it'll still collapse the hoses unless they're reinforced and the pump will probably pop open the thermostat anyways given it'll make 7 psi.

Pump is only a minimal restriction when not operating and won't dramatically worsen the bleeding of the system. could always run it a bit to assit with the water flow

I'm obviously as your experience out weighs the laws of physics

[canberramav]

just_cruizin wrote:

canberramav wrote:

Maybe you have your fans and water pump facts mixed up?

The pump can starve with the setup on the top hose because thats where there will be cavitation. It takes ages to bleed the system setup like this (believe me we did it) you will get air for ages. Until the thermostat opens and its bled properly the pump will be starved.

Given my employment history I don't think I have anything 'mixed' up. Centrifugal Pumps, PD pumps, metering pumps, vacuum pumps, recip compressors, centrifugal compressors worked with them all. fans? No leave that to the low pressure boys.

For the record typically certrifugal pumps may cavitate in either of two ways, both involve running outside their designed range. either you will get 'eye' cavitation from running at either too high a pressure and low flow or 'tip' cavitation running at too high a flow rate with no head of pressure, both of these affect the impeller. Both happen on the back of the impeller in an area of low pressure and it's the when the pressure drops to the vapour pressure of the liquid and vapour bubbles are formed, the actual damage is caused when these bubbles implode back into liquid state, the force is enough to remove material from the impellor. Nuff said

I was wrong in my assumption that the EWP was a vane pump, the Davis Craig is actually a centrifugal pump and if you check their website you can see the pump curve they operate along, depending on pressure. Yes, they don't prime so they do need to be mounted at the lowest, or near to, point on the system. To or from the radiator it'll still collapse the hoses unless they're reinforced and the pump will probably pop open the thermostat anyways given it'll make 7 psi.

Pump is only a minimal restriction when not operating and won't dramatically worsen the bleeding of the system. could always run it a bit to assit with the water flow

I'm obviously as your experience out weighs the laws of physics

Thanks for the long explanation. So now you are agreeing with what i said

Quote:

I was wrong in my assumption that the EWP was a vane pump, the Davis Craig is actually a centrifugal pump and if you check their website you can see the pump curve they operate along, depending on pressure. Yes, they don't prime so they do need to be mounted at the lowest, or near to, point on the system.

Quote:

Given my employment history I don't think I have anything 'mixed' up. Centrifugal Pumps, PD pumps, metering pumps, vacuum pumps, recip compressors, centrifugal compressors worked with them all. fans? No leave that to the low pressure boys.

Quote:

I was wrong in my assumption that the EWP was a vane pump, the Davis Craig is actually a centrifugal pump

Yes you were wrong. I was right. And i dont have a degree in pumps and never claimed i did. Get you facts straight before you come flying in all high and mighty.

[just_cruizin]

No you said it can't go in the 'top' line but it can.

Only part I was wrong with is the type of pump.

Just because you found something hard doesn't mean it can't be done

Just like admitting you're wrong

Unless you're running the top hose over the cab it'll be as low as the bottom hose

[canberramav]

just_cruizin wrote:

No you said it can't go in the 'top' line but it can.

Only part I was wrong with is the type of pump.

Just because you found something hard doesn't mean it can't be done

Just like admitting you're wrong

Unless you're running the top hose over the cab it'll be as low as the bottom hose

You are also wrong as to where to put the pump.

The water still has to make it from the radiator, down under the cab, then UP to the engine before it get back to the return line which is like you said at a low level.

Just because you CAN run it on the top hose doesn't mean you SHOULD.

Quote:

Where in the system you put it is up to you, I would force feed the radiator.

Quote:

I didn't recommend it be run on the top hose

How is the pump going to force feed the radiator if its not in the top hose?

After all this ranting and raving, for anyone that want to mount a DC EWP it needs to be mounted ON THE BOTTOM RADIATOR HOSE AS CLOSE TO THE RADIATOR AS POSSIBLE for optimum performance and to prolong the life of the pump.

Quote:

Just because you found something hard doesn't mean it can't be done

Why would you do it the hard way when there is a much easier way? I know it can be done. Its just a stupid way of doing it.

[TZAR]

canberramav wrote:

There is no need for multiple bleed points like you mentioned. Once it's bled properly of coarse you won't get cavitation unless there is something not right.

Never said mutiple you just need one extra. Gravity does the rest. One at the engine at the highest point. Just an inline raditor cap that is not a recovery cap and its done. Quite a simple job really. Go to radiator shop, get them to make one up for you or just buy, beg , borrow steal a fitting from the top of a radiator, ( they are just soldered in so its easy to get them out) and make an inline one you put in the top hose.

canberramav wrote:

The link I put up is not what I used I made a mistake. Ill remove the link so no one gets the wrong stuff.

gates makes it

canberramav wrote:

If you want to pay top dollars getting an exhaust shop to make up lines then go for it.

Exhaust shop costs about $100-$150 then you can just use a couple of donkey dick radiator hoses. Total cost about $200 for hoses. If you want to get all fancy you can use stainless tube and tig weld a bead on them so the hoses has somewhere to bite onto.

canberramav wrote:

What I wrote makes perfect sense to me.

Must resist commenting on this, having trouble..... resisting.... contemplating being banned again....

canberramav wrote:

Where do you put the pump Tzar seeing that your such a world of experience?

Never needed an extra pump as I have alsways worked large engines. Havent done a suzuki sierra ( with a standard engine) done lots of V8, subura engines in vw's ( beetles, manx , front mount kombi and under neath mount kombi).

And you can loose the attitude too son, I am the shit giver here so zip it......

[SuziBlu]

i recon if we get away from the, im right your wrong, no im right n your rong shit, we could have a quit intelligent argument, lots of good info.