[sierrabuild101]

im wanting to build a four link front and rear sierra and was wondering if anyone has any helpful hints or tips/ maybe even photos to help me get an idea. and also would i be better to run hilux or 60 series axles and diffs? cheers

[SierraDan]

Search Red89's thread: "Noobie"

[want33s]

4 link rear is easy enough.
4 link front is expensive as you'll need hydro steer.
Check the RIGS of AZ section for build ups.

[Red89]

want33s wrote:

4 link rear is easy enough.
4 link front is expensive as you'll need hydro steer.
Check the RIGS of AZ section for build ups.

4 link front end doesnt 'need' hydro



Is there anything specific you want to know Sierra101 ? Are you after high speed or rock crawler ? If its just general info thenas said start reading the Rigs Section for pics and ideas of the work involved.

[want33s]

Red89 wrote:

4 link front end doesnt 'need' hydro

Technically not needed unless you want full lock in both directions at droop. But thats just a luxury...

[Red89]

want33s wrote:

Red89 wrote:

4 link front end doesnt 'need' hydro

Technically not needed unless you want full lock in both directions at droop. But thats just a luxury...

Yer. we managed to keep the draglink pretty flat so it is only really affected in the last few inches of droop. If I ever get off my ass for Tuff Truck I'll go full hydro but until then I'm happy with how it handles.

[31zook]

You will also get bump steer with a 4-link and CMS.

[pezz]

if you wanted to keep your steering "as is" i think 5 link would be better suited(thats 4 link + panard)

[Gwagensteve]

pezz wrote:

if you wanted to keep your steering "as is" i think 3 link would be better suited(thats 4 link + panard)

5 links are notoriously difficult to package, and prone to bushing bind. I see no advantages over a 3 link + panhard.

without more information about fab skills, use, desired wheelbase and tyre size, it's all pretty hypothetical though. as an example, due to the difficultly of packaging a front 4 link (and the resulting height) along with the steering problems, I can't see the point in a 4 link front end for a road driven car, or a car for victorian conditions. For comp use it might be feasible though - that's why I say it's hard to recommend without more information.

Steve.

[joeblow]

Gwagensteve wrote:

pezz wrote:

if you wanted to keep your steering "as is" i think 3 link would be better suited(thats 4 link + panard)

5 links are notoriously difficult to package, and prone to bushing bind. I see no advantages over a 3 link + panhard.

without more information about fab skills, use, desired wheelbase and tyre size, it's all pretty hypothetical though. as an example, due to the difficultly of packaging a front 4 link (and the resulting height) along with the steering problems, I can't see the point in a 4 link front end for a road driven car, or a car for victorian conditions. For comp use it might be feasible though - that's why I say it's hard to recommend without more information.

Steve.

Hey Kenn, your 4 link plus panhard must be shit hot then. Oh thats right, we have tried it and no steering issues, sorry Steve.


OP, more info is needed if you want people who have actually done it to give you advice.

[Gwagensteve]

FFS Joe, read my post properly, don't just jump to conclusions for the sake of pumping up your own tyres.

A 4 link is hard to package and causes steering issues
A 4 link + panhard is hard to package and offers few, if any advantages in my opinion to a 3 link + panhard

Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's the best solution.

Steve.

[joeblow]

FFS Steve,

Gwagensteve wrote:

and prone to bushing bind.

That depends on how you set it up. What system were you thinking of? It binds less than the system I have, which funnily enough is just about the same as your front end.

Gwagensteve wrote:

and the resulting height

Again, all comes down to design. Can be done without increasing height more than an average aftermarket lift.

Gwagensteve wrote:

along with the steering problems

Problems due to handling or 'routing'. Two big differences.

Gwagensteve wrote:

I can't see the point in a 4 link front end for a road driven car, or a car for victorian conditions.

Might want to drive Kenns car and see how well it handles........nah...don't see that happening.
Have you built a front like this, whether it be 4 link plus panhard, three link plus panhard, straight, triangulated etc.etc?

[pezz]

Gwagensteve wrote:

pezz wrote:

if you wanted to keep your steering "as is" i think 3 link would be better suited(thats 4 link + panard)

5 links are notoriously difficult to package, and prone to bushing bind. I see no advantages over a 3 link + panhard.

without more information about fab skills, use, desired wheelbase and tyre size, it's all pretty hypothetical though. as an example, due to the difficultly of packaging a front 4 link (and the resulting height) along with the steering problems, I can't see the point in a 4 link front end for a road driven car, or a car for victorian conditions. For comp use it might be feasible though - that's why I say it's hard to recommend without more information.

Steve.

I wasnt saying its easy to setup.
Just that it will suit better.
For long term road use i would rather a well setup 5 link over a 3+1.
Mainly due to load sharing qualities and bushing life span.
im not sure how well it would suit into a sierra, just saying it is a good setup when executed correctly

Its always good to float ideas

[canberramav]

joeblow wrote:

FFS Steve,

Gwagensteve wrote:

and prone to bushing bind.

That depends on how you set it up. What system were you thinking of? It binds less than the system I have, which funnily enough is just about the same as your front end.

Gwagensteve wrote:

and the resulting height

Again, all comes down to design. Can be done without increasing height more than an average aftermarket lift.

Gwagensteve wrote:

along with the steering problems

Problems due to handling or 'routing'. Two big differences.

Gwagensteve wrote:

I can't see the point in a 4 link front end for a road driven car, or a car for victorian conditions.

Might want to drive Kenns car and see how well it handles........nah...don't see that happening.
Have you built a front like this, whether it be 4 link plus panhard, three link plus panhard, straight, triangulated etc.etc?

Mexican civil war...

[Gwagensteve]

Not at all - I obviously haven't been clear enough I think that's all the problem is.

Let's run through the configurations so eveyone is on the same page.

4 Link:



I wouldn't recommend applying this system for the front of a road driven car with a steering box, even though it's been done, mostly due to bump steer issues.
From a packaging point of view, it's difficult to get the front end low enough with acceptable link convergence and vertical separation, mostly because there's going to be a crank/sump in the way.

for a buggy-type vehicle like red89's I'm sure it's not a problem, but a car of that height/width isn't really practical for a road driven car.

No factory manufactured vehicle I can think of runs this setup either front or rear.

4 Link + panhard, or "5 link"



I understand that in theory this system allows the load to be spread across more bushings, but in reality it flogs bushings. A number of fabricators who have played with front 5 links have given up on them due to short bushing life. I suspect it's a combination of inherent bind and braking force. It's still hard to package at a low overall height but can be setup to work properly with a steering box.

This setup is what's used on the rear of patrols, cruisers etc.

3 link + panhard



This is used factory on the rear of isuzu coil sprung cars.

This can be packaged into the front at reasonable ride height, as Bluesuzy has done, because the top link can be offset to fit up beside the block. There is significant bushing load due to braking force acting on the top link, but less bushing bind than with a 4 link + panhard, so potentially, this setup has the lowest roll stiffness of any link setup that's feasible to run in the front.

A arm



This is used in the rear of live axle rovers and vitaras.

It offers very low roll stiffness ( like a three link + panhard) but as the axle path is laterally vertical, it's equally unsuited to a steering box as a 4 link. It's a good option for the rear though.

Radius arm



Radius arms are used in the front of almost every non-chrysler live axle 4WD. They offer limited articulation due to high bushing bind but high roll stiffness which allows good road handling without requiring a sway bar. They are durable and easy to package, an work well in the front of a 4WD because they offer very high anti-dive characteristics under brakes and squat under power, which is ideal for a front end.

I haven't built a three link + panhard, or 4 link + panhard front end, because I can't see the point. It's a packaging nightmare which then requires a sway bar to increase roll stiffness to provide predictable handling. That's more work on top of more work with no net gain in capability, but that's for a road driven car in victorian conditions. For a pure buggy or TT type vehicle, perhaps there is a case for a setup with lower roll stiffness.

It's possible to build any of these systems, but that doesn't mean they are all equally well suited for a particular purpose.

Steve.

[31zook]

^Take your fight somewhere else

sierrabuild101 wrote:

im wanting to build a four link front and rear sierra and was wondering if anyone has any helpful hints or tips/ maybe even photos to help me get an idea. and also would i be better to run hilux or 60 series axles and diffs? cheers

the 4-link rear end is straight forward, not an easy few mates on a friday night job, but pretty straight forward.

the front is different, the top upper links will merge under the sump, so the motor needs to be pushed back or the diff forward. there is other options dry sump and external oil pump, but there might still not be enough room and the last 4-link option is a reverse 4-link, where the upper axle mounts are pushed to the ends of the axle housing, and the lower links are centered on the diff.

But i believe a 4-link front end is reserved for hydro steer rigs, if its a social wheeler with CMS (chassis mount steering) i would just run a 3-link panhard. no real loss of wheel travel, but a slightly different suspension cycle.

HiLux V 60series diffs, the CVs are the same, but thats it. Im not sure on diff ratios, but enough people run them to have a decent ratio. The track is larger on the 60, and the rear diff also has a full floater.

So if i was building with these parts and i would run 3-link + panhard front, 4-link rear end, and 60 series diffs.

[Gwagensteve]

31zook wrote:

So if i was building with these parts and i would run 3-link + panhard front, 4-link rear end, and 60 series diffs.

X2.

Steve.

[pezz]

in reguards to 5 links floging bushings out,
yes, if you have a high angle of articulation, but for a general purpose 4wd they do just fine

personally i wouldnt go to the effort of setting up a five link, i have had and assisted in setting up 5 link fronts and rears.
i've changed out stock bushings in a 5 link front end at 80,000kms and they were in acceptable conditon, but the customer wanted yellow bushes... so thats what he got

personally i like leaf springs, but im not into comfort, handling or comps
i just like the k.i.s.s. method for ease of repair






post script: im not here to "pick fights" or take "sides", i realise there are two vocal sides on this forum... im just a random shit kicker poking my head out

[BlueSuzy]

All my links movements and bushings are limited to my shocks. Im sure i could get more out of them, But i have no need atm.

Torque/wrap can be an issue with 3 links and soft bushes. Mine is a road rig so i have to run at least 1 rubber joint on a link. My top link runs a heim to reduce the slop

3link+panhard front


4link rear,double triangulated(there is single triangulated also)



ps.dontlookatmyshaftsanglesorsteeringarmstheyarebeingsorted

[atari4x4]

pretty sure joeblow's "yellow thing" ran front & rear "A frame 3 links" & that seemed to work alright from what i've seen.

[Red89]

31zook wrote:

You will also get bump steer with a 4-link and CMS.

Hasnt really been noticeable on mine, but I am flat out at around 60 kph and most of the time I am barely moving over walking pace. No I wouldnt recommend it for a road driven car. I would go Lux diffs over 60's for a Sierra, the extra width isnt really needed and Luxs will handle 40' stickies no worries.

In saying all that as the OP signed up, created the thread and then dissappeared it is a little hard to recommend anything to suit his needs.

[TryHard]

can someone please explane why we are on the subject of suspension why so many people opt to go a 4 link rear over 3 link A frame rear and 3 link with pan front ?
off road use only ..

[got_bar_work]

2 bushes on the top of the diff taking the load instead of 1
Other then that a frame and 4 link are the same

[BlueSuzy]

got_bar_work wrote:

2 bushes on the top of the diff taking the load instead of 1
Other then that a frame and 4 link are the same

The A arms work well, But the centre top bush can wear out quick and there is a bit more sideways movement in the rear. Mate has problems with his lux

[got_bar_work]

Thats y factory ones have ball joints
Everything else flogs out to fast
Wonder if u brought the lowers in like ur 4 link if it would help

[BlueSuzy]

yeah triangulated lowers will help also.

Mates are parallel.
He also did a 4link rear on a 75' with parallel lowers, and the top bushes wore out the same..

[got_bar_work]

I wonder if i could run new lowers on my vit
Might tighten up the rear at speed
It feels a bit lose
Wat happens when ur lowers are way longer then ur uppers
Some jackaroo lowers angled in to a new crossmember would be nice and stop the rear steer a bit

[pezz]

got_bar_work wrote:

Wat happens when ur lowers are way longer then ur uppers

it will alter your pinion angle when cycling the suspension

[Gwagensteve]

Uppers need to be approximately 80% of the lowers.

Steve.

[appsie]

x2 on needing around 80% uppers
i made that mistake and was rolling my pinion forward a long way. i never got to drive like it,come across it cycling thru flex in the shed and fixed it early atleast.

everyone is going to have a different idea or method or setup. theres some wacky shit out there that just works.LOL