[deep-six]

The old alternator in my 89 Vitara would seem to have given up. Not terribly surprising since it has been bathed in oil for the last 6 months while I got around to fixing my front crank seal leak.
Last night driving home the radio went out and the headlights went dim. I half expected to look out the window to see a UFO hovering overhead.
Anyway, went to crank her over this morning but the battery is dead. Pulled the alternator plug, shorted one of the wires to earth as advised by my auto electrician mate and my dash idiot light comes on, it doesn't come on when I turn the ignition to on like it should. Mate says the alternator is most probably shot. He reckons not much chance of rebuilding it and new ones are expensive.
Anyone got any suggestions, cheaper alternative, any one got a good used spare ??

Cheers

Ric

[stocker]

Definitely have a read in the good tech section at the falcon alternator upgrade.

I got mine for 30 dollars I also robbed the smaller fuse box to use as a fuse able link


viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5529

[Gwagensteve]

*Damn- beaten by a phone call *

Have a look at the ef-el swap thread in good tech. It's a no brainer. Cheap, easy to find, and an upgrade to boot.

Steve

[Teracis]

Wreckers, or do the falcon 110a alt upgrade while you're there!

Also beaten due to typing on phone.

[deep-six]

Thanks guys, much appreciate it. Been looking at the post as suggested, there is a lot of different talk about swapping pulleys, drilling holes, replacing water pumps. Its all a little confusing.
The gist of it as I see it is get a EF-EL mitsubishi alternator, 100 or 110 amp.
My vitara alternator has the 4 groove pulley, is it just a matter of drilling out the bracket and whacking on the falcon alternator or is there more to it than that??

[stockman]

If you don't want to do the upgrade then buy one on ebay and DIY.
Would take 20minutes maximum.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SUZUKI-VITAR ... 4ab0e630f3

[stocker]

Hey mate, if you've already got multi groove pulleys you don't need to change pulleys.

Nice and easy. You have to change pulleys if you own a sierra.

Hardest bit is changing the plug over for the exciter

[Reubs]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Have a look at the ef-el swap thread in good tech. It's a no brainer. Cheap, easy to find, and an upgrade to boot.

I vote buy a standard alternator if you want cheap - ONLY $240 new from my preferred Zuk shop.

EXAMPLE:

Okay, so you buy an unknown $50 alternator from a wreckers...

It's come out of a falcon so it's probably been bathed in power steering fluid for a while so maybe you'll be up for another $50 in 6 months time anyways - but that's a separate issue.

You will need a longer alternator belt so add $25 there. You need a really long m10 bolt for the bottom mount and a new longer m8 bolt for the adjustment. Add nuts and washer too from a fastener supplier and it'll cost about $10.

You will need upgraded wiring - I ran 25mm^2 from the alternator to fusible links, and from fusible links back to the battery. This required cable lugs and use of a crimper also. Maybe $50 at an auto elec.

Add a larger fusible link too... $5.

To do the job properly you should also upgrade the wiring to the IG terminal and run it through a relay - in case your wiring (which also supplys the ignition coil) has too much voltage drop in it which will equate to a higher than normal charge voltage once you have a nice powerful alternator installed. Add $20 for some more wiring and a relay.

While you're at it add $5-10 for various quickcrimp connectors - you will need at least a packet of female blade terminals for the alternator and relay connections, maybe some 1.5mm joiners and maybe a ring terminal for your relay earth.

Don't forget $5 worth of tape and cable-ties as well. You could add some split corrugated tubing at over $20 per 10m packet as well but this is a budget upgrade and we're trying to save some dollars...

Even with a cheap $50 second hand alternator - the upgrade will still cost about $175 and a day of stuffing around. Seems the alternator is just the cheap part...

An EF/EL falcon upgrade is just like buying a cheap turbo kit. The money is in the proper installation, and you always end up spending a lot more getting it right!

My new E/F falcon alternator was a Bosch BXF1260A and it cost me $285 new. I don't doubt I would have spent at least $450 all up. A new non-genuine alternator for my coily (same as Vit) would have been $240 from my preferred suzuki shop. I removed the radiator (bigger alternator didn't fit in from the top) also so needed $20 for some new coolant.

[stocker]

Reubs wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

Have a look at the ef-el swap thread in good tech. It's a no brainer. Cheap, easy to find, and an upgrade to boot.

I vote buy a standard alternator if you want cheap - ONLY $240 new from my preferred Zuk shop.

EXAMPLE:

Okay, so you buy an unknown $50 alternator from a wreckers...

It's come out of a falcon so it's probably been bathed in power steering fluid for a while so maybe you'll be up for another $50 in 6 months time anyways - but that's a separate issue.

You will need a longer alternator belt so add $25 there. You need a really long m10 bolt for the bottom mount and a new longer m8 bolt for the adjustment. Add nuts and washer too from a fastener supplier and it'll cost about $10.

You will need upgraded wiring - I ran 25mm^2 from the alternator to fusible links, and from fusible links back to the battery. This required cable lugs and use of a crimper also. Maybe $50 at an auto elec.

Add a larger fusible link too... $5.

To do the job properly you should also upgrade the wiring to the IG terminal and run it through a relay - in case your wiring (which also supplys the ignition coil) has too much voltage drop in it which will equate to a higher than normal charge voltage once you have a nice powerful alternator installed. Add $20 for some more wiring and a relay.

While you're at it add $5-10 for various quickcrimp connectors - you will need at least a packet of female blade terminals for the alternator and relay connections, maybe some 1.5mm joiners and maybe a ring terminal for your relay earth.

Don't forget $5 worth of tape and cable-ties as well. You could add some split corrugated tubing at over $20 per 10m packet as well but this is a budget upgrade and we're trying to save some dollars...

Even with a cheap $50 second hand alternator - the upgrade will still cost about $175 and a day of stuffing around. Seems the alternator is just the cheap part...

An EF/EL falcon upgrade is just like buying a cheap turbo kit. The money is in the proper installation, and you always end up spending a lot more getting it right!

My new E/F falcon alternator was a Bosch BXF1260A and it cost me $285 new. I don't doubt I would have spent at least $450 all up. A new non-genuine alternator for my coily (same as Vit) would have been $240 from my preferred suzuki shop. I removed the radiator (bigger alternator didn't fit in from the top) also so needed $20 for some new coolant.

I take it you know all this from First Hand Experience?


It literally cost me 70 dollars. Including the buy price of the alternator. The cable, the lugs, the new belt.
The only thing I really already had was a soldering iron, the solder and the heat shrink.

I have had the 2nd hand alternator installed for near 18months now.
I hav also priced a rebuild kit ( bearings, brushes 45 dollars, internal reg 50 dollars )
you might just want to mention also the original alternator has less than 1/3 the output of the upgraded falcon alternator

[deep-six]

Thanks guys, much appreciate all the input, I'm in two minds as to what to do, I don't really need any extra output as the only accessories I run are headlights. I take the point that a used falcon alternator could last a month or 10 years, you just don't know the history. I'm not all that keen on doing a whole lot of wiring, some guys might love it, I can take it or leave it.
But on the other hand a new alternator is $250, its a lot of bucks to find.
My other thought is just to find someone who is wrecking a Vitara and grab a used alternator, chuck it in and let it run. If I get one for $50 or less it seems like not too bad an option.
Decisions Decisions .........

[Reubs]

stocker wrote:

I take it you know all this from First Hand Experience?

It literally cost me 70 dollars. Including the buy price of the alternator. The cable, the lugs, the new belt.
The only thing I really already had was a soldering iron, the solder and the heat shrink.

I have had the 2nd hand alternator installed for near 18months now.
I hav also priced a rebuild kit ( bearings, brushes 45 dollars, internal reg 50 dollars )
you might just want to mention also the original alternator has less than 1/3 the output of the upgraded falcon alternator

Strangely enough I do know this from a recent experience upgrading the alternator in my coily - the same OE part no. as on a 1.6 Vitara alternator, and I'm soon going to upgrade the alternator in my LWB Vit as well...

So I'm gussing you soldered the cable into the lugs - LOL. Also 25 or 35mm^2 lugs from supercr4p are $10/pair and you need M8 at the alternator post and M6 at the fusible links so there's at least $20 to do that properly, and retail you will pay $20/metre just for some cable of that size!

FYI the Vitara alternator is 50A max output.

I guess $70 or $170 is the difference between a neat installation and a bodge-up...

[Gwagensteve]

I've fitted a few falcon alternators, and I've yet to see one give any trouble. In any case, wreckers sell with a warranty for an additional fee in any case.

As for the "real" cost... You don't think you might be being a bit pessimistic there Reubs? - when I pull a falcon alternator, I take the M10 bolt with it, and the wiring from the alternator up to and including the engine side fusebox from the falcon. It's practically free when you get the alternator and provides pretty much everything you need to fit it. In my own car I'm still using the stock belt - no cost there. You're welcome to laugh at amy "bodgy job" but only so long as I can laugh at how much money you spent on fitting yours.

Yes, there are a few widgets required, but in the scheme of upgrades it's pretty easy and cheap.

Steve.

[kenn]

Cheapest way out i can see is go to a self serve wrecker and get a standard vit alt for the magical $50 you could spend on a ford one, bolt that strait in no extra wiring, same potential life span.

[Gwagensteve]

Absolutely, but 100A is 100A.

Steve.

[whincup]

well while you're at it, why don't you buy some standard size highway terrains? why go larger muddies? they're much more expensive then you gotta pay for the lift or fuck around with guard cuts, then you need wider rims, then you have to pay more in fuel...


i dont see the difference. its not money wasted, believe me! being able to easily and quickly (relatively speaking) charge both my batteries is well worth that small cost. one of the best mods around IMO

[kenn]

Total agree, thats why I run an XL7 alt in my LJ
but I take it Deep six just wants to get back on the road.

[deep-six]

Yep
Kenn, you hit it right on the head, I just want to get this thing going. I'm not against big tyres, lift kits, engine swaps, but this vitara is just a means for me to get from A to B.
I saving all my money up for my other project ........................

[stocker]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I've fitted a few falcon alternators, and I've yet to see one give any trouble. In any case, wreckers sell with a warranty for an additional fee in any case.

As for the "real" cost... You don't think you might be being a bit pessimistic there Reubs? - when I pull a falcon alternator, I take the M10 bolt with it, and the wiring from the alternator up to and including the engine side fusebox from the falcon. It's practically free when you get the alternator and provides pretty much everything you need to fit it. In my own car I'm still using the stock belt - no cost there. You're welcome to laugh at amy "bodgy job" but only so long as I can laugh at how much money you spent on fitting yours.

Yes, there are a few widgets required, but in the scheme of upgrades it's pretty easy and cheap.

Steve.

X10

Glad to see that everyone's botch jobs still pump out 100 - 110 amps, ill take a photo of mine in the morning to show you how bodgy it looks *insert sarcasm here and lots of it*

FYI - my vit alternator was stamped 35amps rheub, I'll have a good giggle at the price you pay for a brand newy

[christover1]

I usually remove my alternator, take it to auto elec, they rebuild it for around $120.
(for extra you can have them rewound at higher output, I'm told but have never done it)
I did fit a Falcon 110 to my Sierra, and it served me very well.
From a little bit of researching, no real knowledge,
it seems upgrades of charge wires and fuse/fuseable link is wise on efi cars..
I personally wouldn't worry too much with a carby car.

[stockman]

Are the Falcon Alts 100A or 110A?
or is depending on what model it comes off?

[Gwagensteve]

Falcon is 100A
Some Fairlane/Fairmont are 110A

The 110A are harder to find and seem a bit randomly distributed amongst the fairlanes/fairmont.

The charge wire/fusible link MUST be upgraded. The fusible link will blow at slightly above the factory suzuki alternator output. It's vital to have a 100A fuse on the charge wire from the alternator or in the case of a short there is a real risk of fire. An in line fuse could be used, but IMHO it's just as easy to grab the box from the donor falcon and then feed the sierra loom off of that. It's also then possible to use the spare fused locations on the falcon fuse box to feed accessories that require high amp fuses like compressors/fans etc.

This is the case regardless of whether the car is EFI or carby. It's a safety measure, not due to any electro-trickery unique to EFI.

Steve.

[Rossco]

I have had two 110A alternators. I just bough a new one because I was tired of used parts shitting themselves. I asked for a EL 110A alt and I got a 100A so Steve sounds about right. I not to fussed about 10A and I was told that the 110A alt was three times more expensive to get new.

[Reubs]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Falcon is 100A
Some Fairlane/Fairmont are 110A

Also depends if it's aftermarket or OE. Bosch aftermarket replacement for EF-EL & NF-NL fairlane is the same part - BXF1260A and it is rated at 52/108A. I don't know about the Mitsubishi Elec branded ones - I am only going off my own research on Bosch stuff.

stocker wrote:

Glad to see that everyone's botch jobs still pump out 100 - 110 amps, ill take a photo of mine in the morning to show you how bodgy it looks *insert sarcasm here and lots of it*

FYI - my vit alternator was stamped 35amps rheub, I'll have a good giggle at the price you pay for a brand newy

FYI I had a bosch 40A universal fitment 2-wire alternator in my SWB... doesn't mean that is the OE part with the correct rating... Go and do a search against the suzuki part number and see what you find... I also like to 'have a good giggle' at a lot of problems I see reported on this forum because people cut corners and are tightarses. Reliability is awesome!

Also guys - yeah your setups work, but, can you actually get 100A at the battery terminals without excessive voltage loss? Has anyone actually put a clampmeter over there cables and actually measured the output? Has anyone loaded the alternator up and checked for voltage drop from the output post back to the battery or any accessories? Is your setup ideal?

I know from professional experience that ideally you need a 25mm^2 cable minimum for 100A current. FULL STOP - this isn't my opinion, but a figure I cross-referenced from an engineering reference table. I also know that the 25mm^2 cable I am using has a voltage drop of 1.99mV / A m. The same type of cable at 10mm^2 has a voltage drop of 4.97mV / A m. There is 1.1m of cable between the alternator and battery via the fusible link. I would have approx 0.22V loss. If I used 10mm^2 the loss would be approx 0.55V. If I were to use 16mm^2 the voltage drop is 3.12mV / A m (incase the poeple at home want to do their own calculations).

Gwagen raised a very good point in this thread - he used the wiring and fusebox from a falcon when he did his upgrade. I don't think I have seen that point written on this forum. Point is - maybe some people should do their own research instead of just 'upgrading' something because someone on the forum said it could be done.

Gwagensteve wrote:

Absolutely, but 100A is 100A.

Mine is theoretically 108A at approx 14.16V at the battery terminals (14.4V alternator regulator). Isn't 100A at 14.2V better than 100A at maybe 13.8V? Isn't that the reason people upgrade their headlight wiring etc?

[Gwagensteve]

From the looks of that graph, the Mitsubishi alternators will exceed that output at low revs.

Here's my 100A Mitsubishi alternator at 1500rpm.




and a (bad) photo of the falcon fuse box installed.



Steve.

[Gwagensteve]

PS - Yes, I do need up upgrade my earth, It's the factory vitara earth and not up to the job.

Steve.