[Mike57]

Steve

I see what your concern is now with the corrected bushes. I had not worked that out. My guess is that corrected arms are the proper way to go (and I think this is what you would advocate) but I did not want to lose any more ground clearance since I only have 215 tyres and from what I have rad on this site the corrected arms do sit lower. Even if anyone made a bush for the chassis connection that would drop the arm I don't know if the arm could be dropped enough to correct the castor adequately, I would have to check the lengths and work out the geometry. More likely the arm would need to be dropped, but it's a moot point for me anyway. I am pretty sure my anti sway bar will limit the travel more than my less squishy bushes. (that was a good way to describe it by the way!).

The reason I wanted positive castor by the way was a comment you made a long time ago that some positive caster was the best way to reduce the wobble.

Mike

[OVERKILL ENG]

And every car is different you can fit the same kit to 10 cars and get all sorts of different castor readings you really should fit the kit then align it and get the caster angle before making any changes ..

[monley]

Here's my shitty castor angle from my jim


-5.5 castor angle And that's with 2.5 deg bushes.... I have a very small wobble at 60-70kph, but that's from my tyres.

[squibby]

OVERKILL ENG wrote:

And I agree with steve castor bushes are more trouble than they are worth
Sam

Theres a wealth of knowledge on here but gotta disagree with the conclusions being drawn. For the benefit of anyone reading this thread and trying to decide, I strongly disagree that they are more trouble then they are worth, reason being, they are not any trouble at all and they have some great benefits. They are cheap, easy to fit, and you minimise negative camber on corners which DOES give you better handling, prolongue tyre life and also the front coils aren't so banana shape. Not sure if the latter makes any difference, but the first too absolutely do. Talking from experience.

[Gwagensteve]

Squibby, you've just outlined the role of caster correction regardless of how it is done.

Of course bushes will improve handling.
Of course bushes will improve tyre life
However, How do caster bushes minimise negative camber? Do you mean on the inside tyre when cornering? The outside tyre on a car with inadequate caster will have positive camber when cornering., and as that's the "loaded" tyre, normally that's the one we'd be talking about. If so, caster bushes increase negative camber while cornering.

Whilst bushes are the cheapest option, they aren't any easier to fit than replacement arms and they have the disadvantage of reducing flex and increasing roll stiffness in the front end, the last thing a Jimny needs. The ideal solution is replacement arms with factory rubber bushes and the correct caster.

Steve.

[squibby]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Squibby, you've just outlined the role of caster correction regardless of how it is done.

Of course bushes will improve handling.
Of course bushes will improve tyre life
However, How do caster bushes minimise negative camber? Do you mean on the inside tyre when cornering? The outside tyre on a car with inadequate caster will have positive camber when cornering., and as that's the "loaded" tyre, normally that's the one we'd be talking about. If so, caster bushes increase negative camber while cornering.

Whilst bushes are the cheapest option, they aren't any easier to fit than replacement arms and they have the disadvantage of reducing flex and increasing roll stiffness in the front end, the last thing a Jimny needs. The ideal solution is replacement arms with factory rubber bushes and the correct caster.

Steve.

Sorry, Positive camber - and yeah, meant when cornering. Thanks for correcting, don't want to mislead anyone. Totally agree with everything you said, except I didn't say that they are easier to fit then replacement arms, I did said they are easy to fit and I stand by that. The point of my post was to disagree with with anyone who says that castor correction bushes are more trouble then they are worth, I'm not starting a Bushes vs replacement arms argument. If you got the cash, then go replacement arms. But don't decide not to bother with anything at all, because that is a false economy. Your tyre wear will eat up the saving of not doing anything about the castor imo.

[zukenutter]

This is another great read

I ran caster bushes for 10 years without a problem. They are certainly a cheap fix and better than nothing. Jimnys are notoriously light in the steering department and at highway speed can be very tiring. I think any amount of lift can only benefit from some sort of caster correction.

Even though my caster bushes were old and urethane they still let the front axle articulate well.







Just to make this discussion a little clearer before I go on...






When I installed my Off Road Armory arms (4.5" lift caster correction) I had a fair degree of positive caster and loved the way it drove. I was only running 3.75" lift and the effect equalled neg camber on the outside wheel when cornering. Understeer was greatly reduced and cornering was very precise. I'm slightly higher now but still have a degree of neg camber on the outside wheel. I'm definitely a slightly positive caster convert'ee.

[Gwagensteve]

Zukenutter, I agree with your comments, but I'm slightly suspicious about that photo of your car flexing - is the car on flat ground or or is the car pointing downhill?

Steve.

[zuk85]

cheers for all the input and the arguments ha ha ha ha ha besides the warrior adding his word about spelling lol

after all the considerations and talks with the mrs, its been decided to go the 75mm JB lift with the castor correction arms, throw in some extended brake lines and rear shocks relocation mounts and im set. Main worry was insurance, but its already out the door with the 235's and she wont budge on changing down to 215's believe it or not.... "not that I want too either"

Who make sliders for the jimnys?? and not at a fuck off price lol

[zukenutter]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Zukenutter, I agree with your comments, but I'm slightly suspicious about that photo of your car flexing - is the car on flat ground or or is the car pointing downhill?

Steve.

Haha you're a picky bugger slightly downhill but very slight, you can tell by the eyeline of the camera and our upright standing position.

Here's a couple of uphill facing pics




Edit, silver Jim pics were with aftermarket arms so removed

[zukenutter]

For the sake of comparison, here's a couple of pics with the Off Road Armory arms fitted. Rubber bushes certainly work better.

[top jimny]

When you put corrected radius arms, the front axle move a little bit foward, right? Besides the prop spacer, what other things should be considered? will the tires rub where they haven't reached before, for example?

I got 95 mm of lift and considering buying new corrected arms, although it's still a peaceful ride. Already got SuperPro 2" caster correction bushes and riding BF 29" mud tires. Panhards are still stock, believe it or not, and it's fine. Caster angle measured of -1.5 degrees.

Thanks.

[zukenutter]

With standard panhards your axle would have to be noticeably off centre, causing a difference in weight shifting between left an right cornering. Also would be constantly binding the bushes.
Peaceful ride compared to?? 100km/h on bumpy road would be a bit sketchy I would think.

Corrected radius arms would differ between brands. Mine moved the axle forward about an inch, in reality putting it roughly back close to standard location. I did find that my tyres were slightly making contact with the front body mount support which I bent forward out of the way. Was only when flexed up.

[31zook]

Mine was at -7° then I set it to +2° and it's on rails

It has a small shimmy at about 70kms. But it's good before and after that....

My front is 3-link so it travels up parallel and sits well when on bumps, unlike caster bushes....

[zukenutter]

I love the cornering and "on rails" feel of mine, I know it's + but don't know by how much

[top jimny]

Thanks for the info.

To be honest, you can't notice any off centre axle. I really tried. Even loosing the panhards and shaking everything up, it doesn't seems to be at the point of straining anything, i guess. I'm amateur, but that was the opinion of a professional as well.

Also, it's perfectly fine up to 120 km/h. Maybe because may shocks are for +2" only (with shock spacers). However, not as good as stock, but ok.

I guess with new arms everything will be close to stock again for better. Really tempting. I do feel the steering wheel a little "too light" on high speeds. Even with a steering damper fitted.

Travelling over 100 km/h with lateral wind can give you the creeps. But this also happened with stock suspension.

cheers mate

[top jimny]

Some pics of the stock panhard with 95 mm lift. On the others, where this "off centre axle" should be noticed?

[zukenutter]

top jimny wrote:

Some pics of the stock panhard with 95 mm lift. On the others, where this "off centre axle" should be noticed?

Not sure what you're asking here but you won't notice the off centre axle from underneath.

[Blakey]

i put a 3" lift in my jimny from ORA. and with stock panhards with stock wheels one was outside the guards the other was right inside the guards. :O so if you have done a 95mm lift then how can you not notice it???

and from what i noticed if you dont recenter your axle it you will crab a little. and wear your tyres out as well.

[joel]

joel wrote:

50mm, none.
from what i understand.

just installed the 50mm lift, no caster correction, and took the sway bar off, cant tell the difference from stock.

[jimny_timmy]

top jimny wrote:

Some pics of the stock panhard with 95 mm lift. On the others, where this "off centre axle" should be noticed?

So was having half the writing showing and half of it not on the km2's your way of being indecisive?

zukenutter wrote:

top jimny wrote:

Some pics of the stock panhard with 95 mm lift. On the others, where this "off centre axle" should be noticed?

Not sure what you're asking here but you won't notice the off centre axle from underneath.

I think he's talking about the castor??? maybe...

[top jimny]

jimny_timmy wrote:

So was having half the writing showing and half of it not on the km2's your way of being indecisive?

I rotate the tires every 5k km. I like the white letters, but you kind of get tired of them with time and it's good to give them a break. Also, i was curious to see how it will be with the letters inside. Turned out fine. Regarding being indecise, i realy don't know why you related that with flipping the with letters, but maybe it's something in your head.

jimny_timmy wrote:

Not sure what you're asking here but you won't notice the off centre axle from underneath.I think he's talking about the castor??? maybe..

I'm not asking about the caster, i'm asking about the off centre. Can't notice on mine.

Put the pictures underneath so you can see the angle of the panhard. It's fine, i guess. Tryed to loose it and did some tests. Did not move more than a few mm.

Also, i guess it's not crabbing, since i drive 120+ km/h often. On uneven roads it really sucks. OME shocks are overly soft as well, so...

cheers

[zukenutter]

As Blakey said, with 95mm of lift and stock Panhards the tyres on the drivers side will be close to sticking out and the passenger side will be pulled toward the chassis. You may not be able to see it but it can't not be like this. Cornering to the rights will have the car leaning to the left more than it should and on side slopes where the passenger is downhill your Jimny will be more susceptible to falling over.

If this is ok with you then don't bother with adjustable Panhards.

[top jimny]

Thanks, zukenutter.

[zukenutter]

I drove my last Jimny with 90mm and stock Panhards for a while and apart from hating the visible difference the cornering bugged me even more.

[Blakey]

top jimny wrote:

jimny_timmy wrote:

So was having half the writing showing and half of it not on the km2's your way of being indecisive?

I rotate the tires every 5k km. I like the white letters, but you kind of get tired of them with time and it's good to give them a break. Also, i was curious to see how it will be with the letters inside. Turned out fine. Regarding being indecise, i realy don't know why you related that with flipping the with letters, but maybe it's something in your head.

jimny_timmy wrote:

Not sure what you're asking here but you won't notice the off centre axle from underneath.I think he's talking about the castor??? maybe..

I'm not asking about the caster, i'm asking about the off centre. Can't notice on mine.

Put the pictures underneath so you can see the angle of the panhard. It's fine, i guess. Tryed to loose it and did some tests. Did not move more than a few mm.

Also, i guess it's not crabbing, since i drive 120+ km/h often. On uneven roads it really sucks. OME shocks are overly soft as well, so...

cheers

you can drive at what ever speed and still crab its caused by the front and rear axles being of center to each other causing either the front wheels to get pushed slightly sideways or your rear wheels to be pulled slightly sideways cause the axle track straight differently. The effect is very quick wear on your tyres kinda like having bad toe in or out, you basically file your wheels away on the road.

[atari4x4]

here is a basic illustration showing the effects of stock panhard rods on lifted live axle 4wds, the more it's lifted the more it pulls the axle to one side due to the "length" getting shorter.



created with n00bcad version 4.54.01

[zukenutter]

^^^ Haha nice diagram

[zukenutter]

BTW that's a front view

[atari4x4]

hahahaha, it was hard enough drawing it in n00b cad as it was... lucky i worked out how to use the different coloured crayons.