[tonyevans]

JrZook wrote:

JrZook wrote:

Is the spark fat and orange? Test from the pigtail off the coil to see if it will at least jump a 5mm gap. Whats the battery voltage when cranking?

Can you answer these tony?

As stated numerous times above - The spark is Weak and Orange - Battery Voltage under cranking conditions 12.8volts

[atari4x4]

at the coil or at the plugs?

[JrZook]

tonyevans wrote:

As stated numerous times above - The spark is Weak and Orange - Battery Voltage under cranking conditions 12.8volts

Right so how bigger gap can it jump and the end of a plug lead? And sorry I most have overlooked where you stated the battery voltage of 12.8V when cranking.

[tonyevans]

I have a bad hart and am very wary of things like holding plug leads the days so have only tested the spark at the plug anchored to the engine I will see if I can con the Mrs into it later

[JrZook]

Hhahahaha two screws or nails in a piece of wood for an air gap should be suffice

[tonyevans]

Ah! A development - Maybe ................... I just made a 3 volt battery and dug out my old ANALOG multi meter/engine tuner and tested the igniter (Power unit) as per the manual and it shows continuity with or without power applied so the manual says it's dud ................ But then this is the same manual that said the coil was dud but it reads the same resistance as the new coil does.

So order a new igniter or go look for a parked Vitara somewhere ...................... That won't work I have the only one round here.

[GeckoXL7]

sometimes problems come in two or 3. one thing fails that sets of a chain reaction. Hopefully it ended at the igniter.

Looked it up and they referenced to a hyundai, any old hyundai's around? prob can use a tin opener to grab yourself one.

To Suit:
MAKE MODEL SERIES YEAR CYL LITRE ENG NOTE
HYUNDAI Excel X2 01.90 - 06.92 4 1.5L G4DJ
S Coupe SLC 07.90 - 08.91 4 1.5L G15B/G4DJ
10.92 - 05.96 4 1.5L G4EK-TC Turbo
Sonata Y2 04.90 - 10.93 4 2.4L G4CS
6 3.0L G6AT
SUZUKI Vitara ET,TA 09.91 - 03.99 4 1.6L G16B

[tonyevans]

Just gave an working Excel away - not around here anymore but I have a 1991 vit out the back and according to that info it is the same - I did not even look because the coil is different - Off I go to look at the Igniter

[tonyevans]

Nope the igniter is different too - Bugger.

[Zook_Fan]

Any progress?

[tonyevans]

Zook_Fan wrote:

Any progress?

Part won't get here till Thursdays mail - we only get 2 posts a week

[royce]

I havent been following this but ill have a crack, cant be any worse than you lot

so a summary
key left on, battery went flat.
charged battery, ran fine then just stopped
wont start since.

So now through testing
You have fuel pressure at the rail
you have injector pulse, can we extend this a bit?
pull an injector plug off and with a test light across the 2 pins in the plug, crank the engine and make sure the light flashes to a pretty consistent pulse.
check this at least on 2 injectors, all 4 would be better but they are hard to get at

Now the spark
its there but seems weak? its not unusual sometimes I dont think, I'd get a vid of mine but mine is coil in dissy so its different but I reckon you would know what spark looks like by now

do you have a test light? if so can you stick it on number one lead and crank it and see if it looks like its remotely firing in the right spot?

My reason for this one, its freaking rare in my experience for electrical stuff to sort of work, youd either have spark or you wouldnt, however its not unusual for a cam belt to be old and slip, thats all it takes for one of these things to not want to play anymore

If it was my car I would of established spark and fuel present and then gone straight to pulling the timing cover off to check that

[tonyevans]

Thanks Royce - I have used a light on the injectors and have a good constant flash (Fit your own joke in here) but only tested 1.

I have just got a new Igniter and will fit it shortly - The old one was definitely grounded with or without 3v applied as per the test in the manual so maybe it will be the problem - If not then I will look at the timing next.

[tonyevans]

OK - Igniter did not do anything so am moving onto timing.

Removed No.1 plug and turned motor over by hand till the mark on the pulley came round to the timing gauge marks and being an old guy used the old high tech method of putting a screwdriver in the plug hole to feel where the piston was and I find that the piston starts its downward journey at the centre of the timing marks which according to my manual is 10 degrees BEFORE TDC??????????

The only thing I can think of is either the manual is wrong (Would not be the first time) or the woodruff key is shared - Is this possible on these engines? I can not feel any play in the pulley, It seems tight.

If I take the fan shroud off is there enough room to pull the timing cover with out taking the radiator out?

[tonyevans]

This is the timing marks with the No.1 Piston Just starting to go down.

[DarkHorse]

You can get the timing cover off without removing the radiator - I did the timing belt with the radiator still there. I may have undone the top mounts so I could tilt it forward a little, but I'm a bit hazy on that... It takes a bit of bending and persuading to get the shroud out, but after that there's room... just.

Hope you crack it mate.

[tonyevans]

Thanks Darkhorse - As can be seen in the picture I just posted I have got the fan, shroud and belts of - Just having lunch and then I will take the cover off and see what is going on - It will be hard getting my puller in there if I have to take the crankshaft gear off to see the key

[christover1]

My book says ignition timing is done using no4 piston.
Not sure what effect that has.

Pretty sure it should fire at 5* before top dead centre on compression stroke,
not 10* after.
But I could be just muddled up.

I think previous helpers mean to check valve timing,
in case that has slipped out.

Again I could be misunderstanding

[tonyevans]

Valve and distributor are both controlled by the camshaft so if the crankshaft timing belt gear has shifted they will both be out. My picture above is showing where the timing marks are when pistons 1 AND 4 are at the top of their stroke - I believe this should be on the zero mark.

[christover1]

tonyevans wrote:

My picture above is showing where the timing marks are when pistons 1 AND 4 are at the top of their stroke - I believe this should be on the zero mark.

That is my understanding, too.

Mark the exact position of no4 lead on dizzy,
then see if rotor button points there at 5* btdc

[tonyevans]

I have to sort the gear/Crankshaft situation first as if the key is sheared it can do a lot of damage if it moves more

[tonyevans]

OK - Pulley off, Cover off and the 4 timing marks in side a perfectly aligned so - The cover or the nick in the pulley are wrong.

Top and bottom oil seals are leaking so will do them and new belt and tensioner before re-assembly and look elsewhere for the problem though I am now at a loss as to where so I am going to watch the John Wayne movie on the ABC before I do any more the the stupid car.

[royce]

Everybody ssshhhhhhhhhhh you are getting it all wrong

I currently couldn't care about the ignition timing, it can be out 20 degree either way and it will still run pretty well, cam timing on the other hand..

The discrepancy in the timing marks is what I mean, with the pulley on you can see the crank gear is over 10 degrees behind (when you feel the piston dropping you are already past TDC by a fair bit)

If the marks all line up at least the belt hasnt skipped, next is pull the bottom pulley off and check the pulley, crank and woodruff key, if once the big bolt is loose you can move the pulley at all you have trouble

the pullies coming loose and buggering the key and crank is very common on these engines, though I havent yet heard of one being bad enough to stop it running, though last time mine went I wasnt getting the piston dropping anywhere near 10 degree, more like 4

[tonyevans]

Hi Royce, I have now removed all the gears and the bottom gear (Crank) was not as tight as it should be but no play could be felt with the bolt out but the gear did come of by hand (No puller needed).

The dots on the gears and case marks were all lined up as they should be when the piston was TDC by feel.

I have never taken so long to find why a motor won't start in my life but then I have always had cars with nice contact point and condensers in the dissy and carburettors to supply fuel.

My brain still keeps coming back to the fact that the spark is a weak orange colour not nice and blue like I am used to.

[tonyevans]

OK – Update time.

After washing the parts I (The front main seal has been pissing oil out) I could see that the timing gear had been very loose at some time and the woodruff key was warn so put another set on that were tight – Installed new timing belt and tension roller – Fixed the crack and hole in the timing cover with my new plastic welding toy and re-assembled all the other stuff and the timing mark was now as it should be.

Full of confidence I went to the key turned it and listened for the motor to bust into life WITCH IT DID NOT.

Pulled the plugs again – Wet from fuel and the spark looks the same. Getting desperate I decided to test the compression – Result was 90 to 100 psi on all 4 cylinders – Looked in the book and to my horror it says 199 psi at crank speed and minimum of 170 psi. Any one know if this is correct? I only ask because this seems a bit high and there are other specs errors in this manual.

[JrZook]

Book is correct. 90 to 100 on all 4s geez! Was that measured with the throttle fully open?

[tonyevans]

It is EFI and the test procedure in the book says nothing about throttle??????????? - It was cold because I did not think lighting a fire under it was a good idea BUT I may change my mind soon Where's Shep?

[GeckoXL7]

Need 4 cans of start you bastard!

[tonyevans]

Do I take it you think I have isolated my problem Gecko?

My old 105E Ford Anglia would have been more than happy with that ;<}

[GeckoXL7]

Nope, uve pretty much done everything except replace the distributor.

Poor compression wont give a week spark??

Im at a loss all because of a flat battery.

I had a funny one that stumped a RAA service guy, had barely any spark all that happened was the screw fell out the rotar, I just had to call him as had no screwdriver was constantly screwing it back in along with replacing the rotar and dizy cap and they kept burning out making starting hard. Not saying this is ur problem but know what a pain in the but old EFI's can be.