[lil monster]

once again I'm callin on your help, I'm heading to beachport in January an ATM I have no rater recovery points on my car, a 1994 Suzuki vitara. Done the google and iv rang a few places, no one will provide advice because its a issue if it goes wrong. Iv searched on here and have found bits and bobs but I need to no for certain, ATM I have the normal factor tie down points that are like a hoop welded to my chassie along with a little tab looking thing in the front. I don't have a tow bar and don't plan to ATM as I have no need for towing anything. So I purchased rated recovery hooks, with high tensile bolts it looks like they are ment to be drilled thought the chassie but I thought I should ask, thankfully I have not gotten stuck yet .... and am wanting to no I'm set and what I have is safe enough to do the job when the time comes thanks in advance

[atari4x4]

you'll struggle to even find a spot to locate those recovery hooks on a vitara

some wise words right here...

jdk81 wrote:

Fatzook wrote:

95zook wrote:

I thought that loop was a tie down?

it is. but still stronger than the nudge bar mounts.....

Unless both vehicles have massively over engineered recovery points, it should go without saying, that recoveries are to be as gentle as possible.
Explain this to the people you wheel with before every recovery.

It shits me to tears when someone does a fuckhead recovery, and puts my life in danger, especially when they just laugh thinking its funny (makes me hope my recovery points are weaker than theirs).

You need to ensure they have really good recovery mounts, if there's is dodgy, its your life at risk.

Gwagensteve wrote:

^ that should be posted at the start of every discussion about "rated" recovery points. No recovery point is dickhead proof.
Stock Suzuki "tie downs" are perfectly fine for recovery if everyone uses their head.

Steve.

[lil monster]

Once again Atari ur a Wealth of knowledge, but to answer my question can I use these hooks maybe in the rear then if not the front

[lil monster]

And ur right about the bit there I'd rather try 5 times than one flat out time and put a point in a car or worse a person, hence why I'm asking

[atari4x4]

you'll struggle to even find a spot to locate those recovery hooks on a vitara


i've have a pair kicking around for 7 odd years now... i use my towbar or the front hook & will rather have 6 gentle goes at recovering someone than 1 redneck attempt.

[Samwich]

Check my thread lil monster, it shows where my front hooks are
I use a bridle between the 2 points, to half the load.

Also was getting new stuff off B4V and saw this is back in action!!
http://www.bits4vits.co.uk/store/vitara ... d_841.html
I would have looked into it, but wasnt avalible when i did my hooks


Theres alot of stuff you need to know about recovery. Its not a "Simple" tire a rope a pull you out.
Ive see tow balls go through doors, and get lodged in a cargo barrier inside the car...

One thing you should know to. Dont put to much "Trust" into others gear and points, and ALWAYS use a dampener.

For example, my dads LC had rated recovery points put on the front of his car by ARB.
He was stuck coming up a hill and had to be snatched out.
This was the FIRST time using this poing, no damperner was used. The 2 high tensile bolts sheered and the hook flew, Slashed a New STT's and got lodged in the body of the car,

Always check your gear everytime,
Dont drag straps across the ground ect.

[Gwagensteve]

Samwich wrote:

Also was getting new stuff off B4V and saw this is back in action!!
http://www.bits4vits.co.uk/store/vitara ... d_841.html
I would have looked into it, but wasnt avalible when i did my hooks

I've said it before, I don't like this. I think it's poorly designed.

I start every recovery with a low first tow. If that's not enough, I'll gently build up momentum and communicate with the stuck car to determine if it is moving. If it's moving, I won't give it any more - just take it easy and it will come out.

Backing up the length of the strap and giving it everything in 2nd low is almost never necessary.

Also, use your head to ensure you don't get stuck badly enough you need the "back it up and give it a real go" approach. I roll into stuff I think I might get stuck in very slowly. Trying to use momentum to "fly" over a bog hole is nonsense - you'll just get stuck further in and harder. If the car feels good, then you can roll backwards and forwards a bit and build the momentum up to drive through. if the front starts to hang up, at least you are close to the end you came in and have a "runway" to back out.

If you're 100% certain you will get stuck but a more capable car has gone through in front, strap the car up before yo go in and keep the strap rightish between the car that's gone through and you. then you should be fine.

If you set yourself up to need a heavy recovery and test the strength of your recovery points you're going to need every bit of strength you can get. Use your head and the stock "tiedowns" are normally plenty adequate.

Steve.

[royce]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I've said it before, I don't like this. I think it's poorly designed.

I love it, the chances of it failing and killing somebody are real low, so to my mind its going to be better than any other lethal stuff the kind of person buying this would make.

But yeah, if you cant get unstuck with some rocks and a few mates you need to rethink things, look at the stuff they navigate in tough truck etc with some rock stacking and thinking

[McBane]

I've said it before get a GOOD 5000kg snatch strap if your bieng recovered or recovering someone use that because it will stretch properly a 10t or even a 8t is over rated and your light weight suzi wont stretch it causing high shock loads.

when a high shock load situation happens (jaring or a bang noise) a large amount of the momentum is absorbed into the recovery point and can cause it to fail.

by using a corectly rated strap the upper transfered load to the recovery point can be a much as a 1/4 of the upper load transfer of a overrated strap also your forward momentum will be "stored" in the strap releasing and slingshoting you out of your hole

And those recovery points on bit4vits look dangerous

[lil monster]

Iv got a snap strap was the first thing I brought when I got my car :p still wrapped up still clean haha, never needed it and I don't like the looks of the bits 4 vits one ether looks Like d shakels on thread rod XD, I agree that u should start gental I was just trying to find out if I can use te hooks, and are u saying mcbane that my straps over rater

[atari4x4]

BCF do a XTM 5000kg snatch strap that is perfect for suzuki's & smaller vehicles, i believe they're the same but differnt branding in supercheap.

[lil monster]

So is my 8 t one to much :/

[McBane]

yeah BCF ones are only 50 clams

basicly you should feel no jarring when you pull

[Reubs]

lil monster wrote:

So is my 8 t one to much :/

Yes - it is too much for any Suzuki 4x4.

Basically ARB and TJM don't make a snatch strap that falls within the guidelines they now are supplied with for a vehicle with a GVM of about 1500kg.

I have 'cheaper' 4500kg and 5000kg straps.

A 4000kg snatch strap would stretch even better again - absorbing more energy to aid in 'snatch'.

[lil monster]

Looks like I'm getting one of those then, arb may be a spare slash group used on as my old man has a rodeo, ATM super shit and bcf have some on sale

[lil monster]

I should really go get bogged on purpose so I no what it is all about I did a 4x4 course and did a few then but they where in much bigger cars

[atari4x4]

lil monster, you should come on the next run we do, i'd planned one for last weekend but canned it due the hot weather we've had. i should bump the thread & try & sort out a date to do it.

in sand, unless you're sitting on your chassis rail it's quite easy to compress & roll a track to un-bog yourself if you haven't dug trenches to china.

[lil monster]

Ow that would be fun haha iv seen your little Adelaide wheeling thread XD, iv done the role yourself trick in mud and just built up momentum I hope I'm never stupid enough to end on my rails, I have seen people do that and have made myself think and stop before I'm really bogged. I no it's no much but it's amazing how many people get bogged at goolwa from being twats and just not knowing what there doing.

Can I ask though if u have straps that are like 5 tone rated what happens if u have a cruser or pootrol on the other end

[Reubs]

lil monster wrote:

Can I ask though if u have straps that are like 5 tone rated what happens if u have a cruser or pootrol on the other end

The recommended rating for a snatch strap is based on the LIGHTER of the 2 vehicles in the recovery.

If you buy a new snatch strap it's legislated that there are safety instructions included like these that explain everything - well worth a read.
http://www.juststraps.com.au/pdf/Snatch%20Straps%20Industry%20Guidelines%20Final%20March%2008%20Amended%20pdf.pdf

[lil monster]

Ill have a read of that thanks

[shakes]

while on topic, does anyone have knowledge or which grade bolts are best suited to be used with 'recovery points'?

[royce]

Even though Ruebs is the one spouting it I wont direct this question at him cause he cant answer for a while

Can somebody point out to me where the link between the min breaking strength of a strap and how much it will stretch at any given load? seems to me people saying no you cant use an 8t (HTF is force measured in kg anyway) on a Sierra cant really back that up

http://www.juststraps.com.au/pdf/Snatch ... %20pdf.pdf
This link doesn't say much about it, just to make sure your straps breaking strength is sufficient

Is there some magic this strap will stretch this much at this much load rating I am missing? (all the oldies remember when some mag tested a heap? The breaking strength had nothing to do with which stretched and which didn't)

The reason I ask is in climbing, ropes are stretchy and a big thing, and there is absolutely no correlation to size, breaking strength and how much it will stretch (and then also how much force it will impart on the weight hanging off it)

I have a rope that is 10.2mm thick and is stronger and stretchier than some 11mm ropes, likewise there are 9mm that will stretch less than mine.

I think a complex subject is being interpreted wrong due to a huge lack of info and a lot of assumptions by people that don't know any better

[alien]

its interesting you all use snatch straps... when shopping for a recovery strap i prefer to use a tow strap (ie: no stretch)... i opt for this because with no stretch comes next to no recoil should the strap let go. I just do as gentle as possible recoveries in low range 1st or reverse and i've never had an issue with a huge jolt coming through the chassis etc. I also then have the excuse that if a slow steady tow doesn't work i CANT snatch them out because its not an elastic strap - this then results in more digging and packing of the wheels by the owner of the stuck car before we try again (or use a heavier vehicle to try the recovery).

[shandy92]

shakes wrote:

while on topic, does anyone have knowledge or which grade bolts are best suited to be used with 'recovery points'?

prob as high as you can get, one of the comps over here said that the bolts must be grade 10 or above.

Steve, do you think it is possible to modify/ re-engineer the B4V recovery bar to make it more suitable for recoveries? if so how? would you be willing to make a batch of them? obviously you would receive $$$ for your work.

I had to be snatched out on sunday as after 15mins of rock stacking i wasnt going anywhere.....rear locker has swung the rear around into a bank making the only way out to be forward, other wise i would loose my rear bar. I rapped my snatch around the front round crossmember a couple of times and it was more than enough.

For the rear, i was told to plate both sides (inside an out) of the chassis, so the chassis is sandwiched between the two plates, then drill two holes between all 3 plates and then weld the two plates to the chassis. use the 2 holes to bolt the hook on.

or you could use the 2 bolt holes that are provided for the tow bar and bolt the hooks to that......the bolt spacing might be to far apart but im sure it could work somehow.

Royce-was thinking the same thing. good point

cheeers

[alien]

shandy92 wrote:

I had to be snatched out on sunday as after 15mins of rock stacking i wasnt going anywhere

you were diffed out though, and even then you only needed a very gentle tug to get you out, prolly equivalent to 4 people pushing i reckon... a factory tow point would have been fine for that recovery.

my rear recovery hook is mounted by plating, gusseting and welding the shit out of the chassis then bolting it on, the chassis is going to bend before it comes loose... my fronts are similar - they go straight into a double plated crossmember with crush tubes.

[shakes]

shandy92 wrote:

shakes wrote:

while on topic, does anyone have knowledge or which grade bolts are best suited to be used with 'recovery points'?

prob as high as you can get, one of the comps over here said that the bolts must be grade 10 or above.

Different grade bolts will break under different loads. Just don''t understand enough about which bolts break when. I suck at google so am just asking now.

[royce]

shakes wrote:

shandy92 wrote:

shakes wrote:

while on topic, does anyone have knowledge or which grade bolts are best suited to be used with 'recovery points'?

prob as high as you can get, one of the comps over here said that the bolts must be grade 10 or above.

Different grade bolts will break under different loads. Just don''t understand enough about which bolts break when. I suck at google so am just asking now.

higher the number, the higher mpa they break, usually the lower numbers will stretch more before breaking so is a bit of a warning

2x M12 Gr8.8 bolts will snap around an equiv force to 5.5t hanging off them, not as much as a shackle, prob similar to a strap and for a zook if should be plenty enough

[Daly87]

Just jumping in on this, so with out a tow bar or front bar... does any body know how to attach the recovery hooks to the chassis? can you just drill two holes in it and bolt the hooks to that?? I have two black rat recovery hooks was just thinking of drilling holes ant bolt them in as i cant afford front and back bars yet.

Cheers,

Col

[303zuke]

royce wrote:

higher the number, the higher mpa they break UNDER TENSION, usually the lower numbers will stretch more before breaking so is a bit of a warning...

High tensile bolts have the best performance when the force is applied along the axis of the bolt, but are relatively poorer performers under SHEAR. The appropriate bolt to use for a certain situation will depend on the expected axis of force. I cannot find a reference that states it, but I am led to believe that when the force in a particular application is along the axis then Grade 8 (or 8.8 in Metric) is sufficient, but if shear force is expected (ie the axis of force is at right angles to the axis of the bolt such as when mounting tow hooks), then a Grade 5 will provide better shear resistance than a Grade 8. Under shear, a Grade 8 can fail before a Grade 5 bolt.

[DarkHorse]

Daly87 wrote:

Just jumping in on this, so with out a tow bar or front bar... does any body know how to attach the recovery hooks to the chassis? can you just drill two holes in it and bolt the hooks to that?? I have two black rat recovery hooks was just thinking of drilling holes ant bolt them in as i cant afford front and back bars yet.

Cheers,

Col

NO!!!

The walls of a Vit chassis are tissue-paper thin. Not only will they not cope with a recovery force the simple act of tightening a bolt will likely crush the tube walls.

As above, at a minimum I would suggest plating both sides, and using crush tube to maintain the wall spacing.