[Stuey]

Ok, so I need some help from the Vitara gurus out there. I’ve just spent my Saturday swapping out the tin foil alloy housing and carrier in my Vit for a steel one from an early model Grand Vitara.

A little background on my car, it is a 97 2.0 SWB Widetrack SV420. I have had the 3” Calmini suspension lift fitted to the vehicle. An issue I have had with this kit from new is that it was never meant to fit the 2.0 model like mine, only the 1.6. As a result, various adaptions and variations needed to be made. None more apparent than the 2” diff drop brackets. Due to the wider spacing of the 2.0 chassis, longer bolts and spacers needed to be used to get the brackets to mount up to the diff. Having never been happy with this from the start, I chose to swap these brackets out for 1” diff drop brackets from Outdoor Auto made to suit the 2.0, whilst fitting the new steel diff. My questions and problems are:

1) What is preferred, 2” Calmini brackets, or 1” Outdoor Auto brackets? Obviously the 1” brackets appear to be more suited to the application as they bolt up correctly and hence appear stronger, but does a 1” diff drop provide enough stress relief to the CV’s when considering the 3” suspension lift. Or should I endeavour to use the Calmini brackets but rectify the mounting issues by using better spacers and mounting hardware?

2) If using the 1” diff drop brackets, what is the preferred cross member mounting bracket to use, factory OEM, or the Calmini bracket? And what exactly does the Calmini bracket do compared to the OEM item? The reason I ask is that the mechanic that fitted my 3” Calmini kit found the need for some reason to chop and reweld the cross member mount bracket?!? As a result, when used with the 1” Outdoor Auto diff drop brackets, the cross member mount is seriously misaligned. I’m wondering if I need to try and get hold of a new Calmini bracket or if a standard one would suffice. So how exactly are they different eg the the Calmini bracket lowers the rear of the diff etc?

3) After tampering with all the suspension, I noticed the wheel alignment is out. I have marginal toe in and +ve camber. After filling the diff with oil, I wanted to give the car a very short test drive to lubricate the various components. A straight line, very low speed test was conducted up and down my driveway. In 2H, nothing out of the ordinary. I then engaged 4H, both Auto hubs appeared to lock in, and then it was as if the front wheels wanted to drive themselves under the car and snap off underneath. They pulled together ridiculously and I had +ve camber to the max!! I quickly stopped, reversed and they straightened out again. Is this an alignment issue? Why would it only happen in 4WD as opposed to 2WD? Or is there possibly something far more serious here to consider?

4) I noticed that when reversing in 4H, it would appear that one of the Auto Hubs has not been put back together properly. The drive shaft rotates with the wheel, then it appears to “skip” with a loud clunk, and then start to move again. The problem disappears in 2WD. Can anyone tell me how to check if I have put the hubs back together properly? The Haynes manual I have doesn’t touch on the subject. That is unless anyone thinks the problem is something else.

Any help greatly appreciated.

[sp1086]

Mate it looks like you need camber bolts..

Also the clamini springs are designed for heavy bulbars. I have the calmini 3" springs in Zukzilla but not their suspension arms.

[royce]

On Jeffs vit we threw all the drop brackets out and jsut ran standard ones, the drop brackets put too much leverage on the chassis and the diff jsut twisted anyway, there is bugger all difference to the CV's cause youll likely break them turning anyway.

the camber issues you are having is too much toe in, youll need to try and correct that a bit before driving it to somewhere to get a proper allignment

[sp1086]

Ive been running my own drop brackets on my front diff for ages.. They are basicly just like a drop shackel. They dropped the diff by about 2" & I am still running the standard rear mount on the cross member.

This leveled out the CVs some what but yes With lockers on I can break them on demand.. HILUX IFS ones going in soon... No more breaky breaky.

[Stuey]

Just to re clarify..... I know the alignment is out. My car already has camber bolts fitted but they need to be re adjusted since I've had them out when fitting the steel diff. This is not the point I'm trying to make.

What I'm trying to figure out is..... does my current poor wheel alignment explain why when driving forwards in 4wd, the wheels are pulling drastically under the car. That photo above is after driving forward in 4wd. Not how it sits normally. I recon if I had kept going the wheels would have folded underneath they were pulling together that much. BUT, rolling back and forward in 2WD you can tell they are slightly misaligned, but they don't pull together like that photo. Why is it that putting drive to the front they are pulling under su drastically. Is this just down to alignment? I'll book it in to get the camber bolts, toe etc all fixed this week. I'm just hoping that is the solution to the problem.

Can anyone comment on the auto hubs issue?

[atari4x4]

having just done this same swap yesterday, including running calmini suspension i had no drama's with the wheel alignment..... i'm not running camber bolts but do have ome struts & the calmini GV front springs. it all bolted up using the calmini drop brackets & yeah my cross member has been clearanced.

the auto hubs are pretty simple, pull it down & see if there is anything out of wack.

ok, silly question time.....

did you mark the camber bolts so they went back in the same place?

did you change both diff ratio's front & back?

did you make any adjustments to the tie rods?

[Stuey]

Answers to the not so silly questions:

Camber bolts were not marked. I stupidly didn't think of it till after one side was already completely apart.

Both ratios front and back are now 5.125

Tie rod ends were not tapered with.

Auto hubs are easy eh? Maybe when you understand how they are meant to work to start with!I pulled them apart and thought to myself holy crap. I hope these go back together ok. Obviously I stuffed something up. Maybe i need to take more time and work through them.

[atari4x4]

have you got the factory work shop manual, that should help when trying to reconstruct the hubs.

www.suzukiinfo.com


do you run camber bolts top & bottom? if they are both in the wrong spot i'm guessing that might create the mega camber issue.

[Stuey]

No unfortunately I have never been able to view that website for some reason. Everytime I go on there I get a "bandwidth exceeded" message.

As for the Camber bolts, I run one top and bottom on the left, just the one at the bottom on the right. I'm just stumped as to why the wheels only pull together when in 4wd. Yes they are still missaligned when in 2wd, but you can still drive around ok. In 4wd you cant drive more than 10 meters without the wheels wanting to fold under the car.

[joeblow]

the grand vit that i built running 34's was a pain in the arse. i actually went to the extent of lowering the front arms and also the rac and pinion setup. this was the only way to bring the front back to acceptable tolerances, and also be approved the the relevant authorities.

[royce]

to answerthe question, yes the way out toe settings are trying to make the tyres drive under, made worse by the angle of the bottom arms

my mini does the same thing, I use it to set the toe right

[Stuey]

Ok, I had an alignment done today. Toe and camber are now within acceptable tollerances. Yet....its still Farked. Drove beautiful and straight in 2wd, at all speeds. Once again, put it in 4wd and the wheels try to turn themselves inside out within a few meters. Any other ideas? I can post a copy of the alignment print out if it helps.

[royce]

print out would be good

[Stuey]

Ok, sorry if the pic is a little on the big side.

[royce]

should be no reason for ti to happen, I know they do jack up a bit when the front is lifted, give it a good strasight run on dirt in 4wd to see what happens, nothing should brake off dont worry

[Stuey]

Ok, I really hope this isn't the answer to my problem, but....
How many teeth should there be on the pinion gear from a front vit 5.125 diff? (I don't know if that question is too non specific) When I changed my diff ratios (which was part of this diff swap process) I gave a diff workshop the front alloy carrier containing the 5.125 gears taken from a donor Vitara, and a steel carrier (which still contained the pinion gear) from a donor Grand Vitara to do a swap over. I'm hoping that the pinion gear was changed out of the alloy unit and that the pinion gear already in the steel carrier was not just left in there. My concern is that if the diff workshop stuffed up, maybe the front and rear is trying to turn at a different rate? Just throwing that out there. I am probably on the wrong track altogether. Just working through a process of elimination.

[joeblow]

what model donor did the front come out of? and what model donor did your rear come out of?

[DieselZook]

I'm not certain but would think that the pinion would be 8 teeth and the crownwheel would have 41 teeth.
To be certain count the teeth yourself then do a bit or primary school maths.
diff ratio = crown wheel / pinion
eg pinion 13 teeth crown wheel 60 teeth then 60/13=4.615385...
The diff ratio would be 4.62

Just on onother note. If the ratio of the pinion in the steel carrier was not a 5.125 then the pinion would not mesh with the new crown wheel. Also if they were a decent diff workshop they would have changed it because crown wheel and pinions are made as a set and realy shouldn't be mixed and matched.

[Stuey]

Exact models of donor Zuks I could not tell you as they were supplied only as parts. But when I was hunting down the diffs I specifically asked for a 5.125 front and rear diff, the front being a 26 spline from an Australian delivered EFI Suzuki Vitara. The suzishop guy checked the ratios whilst he was there. Obviously the rear was a straight bolt out, bolt in affair. The front alloy carrier containing my donor 5.125 gears was taken to WA Diff Centre along with a donor steel carrier from an early model Grand Vitara (exact model unknown, all I can say is it was an early model due to the type of cross member mount on the side of the carrier). This donor steel carrier was empty except for the pinion gear which was still in it. After I picked up the diff, I got back an empty alloy carrier, with a loose pinion gear and bearing (ie not installed in the carrier itself, just loose parts) The pinion gear I got back "spare" which I'm hoping is the unneeded one from the steel carrier originally has 10 teeth.

DieselZook wrote:

I'm not certain but would think that the pinion would be 8 teeth and the crownwheel would have 41 teeth.
To be certain count the teeth yourself then do a bit or primary school maths.
diff ratio = crown wheel / pinion
eg pinion 13 teeth crown wheel 60 teeth then 60/13=4.615385...
The diff ratio would be 4.62

Just on onother note. If the ratio of the pinion in the steel carrier was not a 5.125 then the pinion would not mesh with the new crown wheel. Also if they were a decent diff workshop they would have changed it because crown wheel and pinions are made as a set and realy shouldn't be mixed and matched.

I wish it were that simple as the diffs are now installed in the car and I really don't fancy pulling the front diff out again unless absolutely necessary. I understand exactly the mathematical calculation to which you are referring. I also agree with you that the pinion and crown wheel should be a pair.

So I'm completely stumped as to why my car is behaving the way it is. I'm getting frustrated as I need the damn thing back on the road as it is my daily driver. Plus the budget for this exercise has now well and truely dried up.

Joe, with your comment are you suggesting that both front and rear diffs should be from a specific car/cars and that its not quite as straight forward as finding donor 5.125 gears, irrespective of model?

[atari4x4]

could you not work out the ratio's by jacking the rear up & doing a full revolution on the tail shaft & counting the turns the tyre does & then doing the front & comparing the difference?

[atari4x4]

my 2 5.12:1 diffs came out of 2 completely different zooks, the rear was an aus delivered swb hardtop & the front came out of a jap import & that was 22 spline, I just use the R&P from the front & it went together no drama's with an airlocker.

[Stuey]

Gus, I'll give that a shot tomorrow arvo. I can see the rear being easy enough. But the front I'm trying to work out. The hubs would need to be engaged yeah? But transmission in neutral and transfer in 4H (if all wheels off the ground) or Neutral? Thats the only way I can think to be able to be under the car, and count the revs whilst turning the shaft manually. What a pain in the arse this is becoming!

[royce]

put in high 4

drive in a straight line for 20m or so and stop, hold foot on brake

select 2wd

if you cant get out of 4wd the ratios differ, if you can they are the same

but that wont be your problem, jsut go for a drive on a dirt road, see what happens, its proabably jsut the way the tyres pull against the road

[Stuey]

Ok, I took it for a quick drive on a local grassy/dirt area. I did your 4H to 2H test Royce. Swapped cogs no worries. Did a short trial run in it in 4H, Auto hubs seemed to work ok (I had them apart again and it seems I fixed whatever issue was there). However, moving along slowly in 4H on the grass I was met with a loud BANG! I got out, shoved my head under the car and i saw this:

[Stuey]

I can now move this driveshaft in and out of the diff by hand. If I shove it back in and twist it slightly back and forward, you can see the axle on the opposite side still moving as well. I guess the issue is, why isn't the thing staying in, what would have caused it to pop out in the first place and could this relate to the other issues I have experienced. From memory, there is a little spring clip on the end of the shaft. Is that what is supposed to hold it the shaft in?

[atari4x4]

the cv does just push in, but it should be retained by the circlip thing.

when you were in 4wd on the grass did the wheels still want to fold under the car?

[Stuey]

They did still pull in slightly but no where near as aggressively as on the bitchumen. I think the circlip might be stuffed as the driveshaft is seemingly too easy to pull out of the diff. It takes minimal effort to do it by hand.

[Stuey]

Today I had finally had a gutful of the problems I’m having with this front diff issue. I thought the reason the driveshaft had jumped out was due to a faulty/broken spring clip on the end of the shaft. So I pulled the drivers front side apart again to pull the shaft fully and have a look. Spring clip was fine .While I had my head under the car I also noticed that the formed in place RTV gasket sealer I had used must have been past its shelf life as the diff had developed a slight leak. After a few minutes of “You F**king piece of ~!@#$%^&*!!!!!!!!!” I calmed down enough to rip the whole front diff out again because I knew the only cure was to redo the gasket. When I pulled the diff carrier out of the housing some of the silicone was still not cured even after 3 weeks of allowed cure time! BUT…. The big point is this….. Purely to satisfy my curiosity I thought I’d calculate the ratio of the front diff once and for all. No more speculating as to why the front end was kicking up. And the outcome was 8/39 tooth count = 4.875!!!! So I was running 5.125 in the rear and 4.875 up front. No wonder I had so many dramas. Moral of the story is, never take a mechanics word as final. Always check. I feel like a complete dumbass as I checked the rear before putting it in, but I was too lazy to check the front (as the mechanic had already told me it was 5.125). Not even a minute of my time would have saved all this headache.

Now as a result of this find, can anyone suggest things I should check for in terms of damage that may have resulted from this stupid stuff up? No matter how trivial I want to look into it as I don’t want to get the thing together again and find a new problem as a result of damage from the the incorrect diff.

Out of curiosity, what are 4.875 gears out of? Anything other than an X-90?

[steve]

sorry can't help with advice there Stuey, but i have been following this and gees you must be relieved to find the problem!

[joeblow]

check axles for twist. 4.8's can be found in 2.0 litre gv's and estates.