[Gwagensteve]

Droverdave, hove you ever tuned A G16B/AW-4 combo for any of the things I've asked? I'm not being a shit, but claiming the right solution is throwing the stock ECU in the bit is pretty bloody minded. Running a wideband O2 sensor is just sensible with a tuned motor, regardless of the management used, and that could be as useful a tool for checking fuelling with a rising rate reg as with management.

I'm normally the first person to shut down this kind of things with "go full management" and "understand the real cost of a turbo conversion" but I think in this instance Jim is being pretty realistic with his performance goals. I imagine at 5 psi the stock engine will last quite a while.

It's not a stock RB30 at 9 psi, it's a stock G16B at 5psi.

I hate cheapskate turbo conversions too, especially when people won't spend money on proper management, but like you've said, it's horses for courses. If this motor lasted 2000km that would see out the life of the rest of the car, and at 5PSI all the indications are the engine won't die. I'm not even claiming it won't need management changes, but it might just need an interceptor, there should be no need to start from scratch, and that won't effect all the things that are very hard to get right with aftermarket management - sure it might drive a bit funny under transitioning to WOT, but that's never going to be as much of a pain as driving piggy off idle when you're trying to crawl.

My rough calcs are that 5psi of boost will add between 32 and 45hp to the cars original 95 or so.

I don't think anyone has ever added so little power with a turbo but I think that's exactly what Jim's car might need and is very, very unlikely to pop the stock motor. To put it in context people claim these % increases just from a carby and exhaust change on G13A's all the time and nobody tells them they need to build a new motor because it's going to melt down.

I don't know if it's cost effective, but it might be more cost effective than a J20 swap to make the same numbers. It's going to cost more than N2O, but if the boost threshold is low enough it will be boosting torque well below the safe threshold for spray, which is 3000rpm. the catch is it might be well out of flow above, say, 5500 rpm, so the car might get a bit doughy up there. However, my car upshifts at 5500 rpm under full throttle unless it's in power mode anyway so it might be largely irrelevant.

Would I do it? no, I don't think so. I'm OK with my cars limited performance on the grounds that it seems to have less power than it has driveline strength, but I understand what Jim is trying to achieve and think it would be very effective (gearing aside)

Steve.

[droverdave]

fist off, 5psi, or 30psi, same princibles apply.

Nope never played with g16b, aw-4 comb. what does the aw-4 need to get from the ecu to tell it to shift?

that could be tricky.

I completely agree that the standard ecus give the best all round driveability, its VERY difficult to get that right. but there are fundamental limitations which i don't believe are easy to address.

The engine i have helped tune was a highly ported 12a + turbo, running a standard FC turbo, that we were overdriving the hell out of to 25psi (huge intercooler to cool this down), and managed a successful 11.4 quarter mile. (on E85)

Now its my mates car, we are both engineers, it was a project car, so we basically got it "good enough" on anything other than wide open throttle. by good enough i mean, it idled very well, it started fine in any conditions that we had to test with (qld weather, so temperature only varies about 30deg...)

as for the OPs request, i dont get the impression that the new engine needs to run at both 50degC and -6degree heat, at the base of a mountain and on top of it. at 300km/year, hes not going to get out of his post code......similarly with my mates car, we didnt need to tune for every single temperature and pressure (altitude) like the OEM's need to do. my mate drove between his house, his work, coles and willowbank raceway. nothing else.....so we just did a little bit of enrichment when it was cold, and that was good enough to get a nice easy start. similarly for the main fuel map, we had it reasonably enriched with cold coolant, but it was a rotary....it didn't stay cold long, so it was up to operating temp pretty quick. i suspect for a 4wd vehicle you would need to do considerable more work on the temperature enrichment map.

you have starting maps which are separate to the main map, so you can start it rich, start it on retarted timing, get it going, then it goes to the main map. (with temperature correction until it gets to operating temp)

like i said, i completely agree that you will never get the drive ability of an OEM computer with an aftermarket hack job, but in my experience you can get bloody close.....

I still ask the question, how are you going to run a turbo on the standard computer?

standard G16B is a MAP sensor, what is the ecu going to do when it sees positive pressure on the map sensor? i dunno what its going to do , never tried it on that specific sensor. But you cant change the sensor, cause the standard computer wont know what to do with it. This is the same problem faced with 4ages + turbo. MAP refuses to read positive pressure. So maybe you manage to get a sensor that reads positive pressure, is the standard computer tuned for positive pressure? id almost guarantee it wouldn't be. Suzuki had no reason to do it

now fuel, rising rate fuel regs and "checking it on a dyno" sounds alot more dodgier than what i'm suggesting. hoping for the best on one of those contraptions is not my idea of getting the engine to work. proper maps in the ecu allow for precise fuel metering, i like precise when talking about doubling the torque of a motor, which i suspect you will do even with 5psi. even if you only added 2psi, i don't reckon the ecu will handle it, and it will damage it. it just has no idea what to do with positive pressure in the inlet manifold

simliarly for timing, n/a engines ted to run quite alot of advanceming if i recall correctly, but when you are cramming in twice as much petrol and air, this has to be changed. timing was much more difficult to tune than fuel, but we had a knock sensor, and just kept the knock under control, any sign of more knock, pulled it back a bit. i think we were quite conservative on timing, but conservative is safe......

in my experience, piggy back ecus are only good at tweaking the standard ecus. ie, if you put some hot camshafts in the g16b, or up the compression. you can use a piggy back ecu to just add a tad more fuel in, but introducing positive pressure into the intake manifold, i think that is outside the 'piggy back ecu' realm.

Appart from NOS being illegal, how do you intend on tuning that?

[droverdave]

AS for the auto thing to non suzuki ecu,

http://auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=23086

these guys sound like they are onto something, perhaps ask them to post results?

[Gwagensteve]

drover,

The car will well and truly get out of its postcode - it's trailered all over the place. it might see all sorts of conditions. It will certainly do the base of the mountain to the top. JR hasn't completely resolved AW shifting at the moment, or interfacing it with aftermarket management, only that he's gained control. (Which is very cool and a major step) no question.

Your comments about the rotor you tuned is exactly my point. It's exactly how and why most aftermarket ECU's are tuned. Whilst it's cool to pull an 11.4 1/4 and all, a car that stumbles a bit or is a bit piggy, especially under light load, at very low revs, or at some point in the rev range be fine in a race/drag motor that's predominantly at no throttle or WOT, but if you're loading the car up on the converter with the car on a sketchy angle you don't want a stumble, not when the stock car drove fine at that load/rev point.

I'm not going to get into the specifics of running a MAP only G16B under boost, it might be more prudent to run early vitara MAF only which has much more latitude.

How do you tune NO2? You run a wet system. Tech on these is well proven and pretty conservative - the end result is a very rich car under spray, and at a 50hp shot it's all quite safe for the motor.

NO2 isn't illegal to carry, it's illegal to have connected on road. Disconnected it's far more legal than the 35" tyres we're running, and on a trailer it's all a bit academic.

Steve.

[larry]

if you only drive it a couple times a year then its not worth the effort

[Gwagensteve]

And that's why a $15K motor/dyno/ECU build isn't justified. It's a trail POS that needs more torque now and again.

Steve

[William20]

Wet nitrous kit with small jets and a progressive controller. Set it to start squirting at 1000rpm and it should have good power gains and rev up a lot quicker.

[JrZook]

Gwagensteve wrote:

JR hasn't completely resolved AW shifting at the moment, or interfacing it with aftermarket management, only that he's gained control. (Which is very cool and a major step) no question.

Correction:

That thing I've been working on is to interface the stock AW4 and its stock TCM to any management system. Even carby/AW4 will be possible provided you slap a TPS on it

Turbo stuff: Did anyone even look at the link I posted on the first page of a system "slapped" together, raced and run on-road for quite a few miles and going strong? To me that's exactly what jim seemed to be chasing. There are also a few daily driven baleno builds out there with boosted g16 and minimal mods. They seem to be holding together under low boost levels. Rhinoman may know some info regarding the MAP sensor and the ECU limits.

Actually another thing that's been running around for quite awhile without issues is brenno's supercharged g13bb, which is very similar to the 16b and the ECU is MAP based. Again more first hand info that it can be achieved and hold reliability.

Speaking of which, have you considered supercharging jim?

[Rhinoman]

Gwagensteve wrote:

The factory spend thousands and thousands of hours tuning cars on dynos. They have cold cells to replicate the very coldest start conditions repeatably. They run control fuels to mimic poor octane. They run ridiculous, engine-killing ramp rates to refine every single point on the rpm scale.

They also have around 120 maps, the cheaper aftermarket systems have something like five!!! The Jimny ECU is far more powerful than an aftermarket but would need some tuning to work with a turbo although you could fix max. boost at atmospheric and then you could get a good boost at lower RPM/throttle settings withoutout going outside of the range of the MAP/Baro - the turbo would need to be small enough though.

[sierrajim]

Cheers JR, reading that thread has kept me busy. Hence me being quiet for a while.

Supercharger vs turbo. Had figured a turbo would be a tad easier on the driveline. Thought the supercharger would possibly cause auto issues with more snappy power.

The us thread very helpful.

Have the gt17 turbo with a waste gate that is supposedly set at around 6-7psi. Fat zook has hooked me up with some flange to bolt to my block and eastern turbos are sending me the turbo plate.

Need to source a rising rate fuel reg now, any suggestions?

[sierrajim]

Oh, Steve. Doesn't NOS cause issues if you're on the button and back off or drop revs?

[Brenno]

Actually another thing that's been running around for quite awhile without issues is brenno's supercharged g13bb, which is very similar to the 16b and the ECU is MAP based. Again more first hand info that it can be achieved and hold reliability.




I was going to mention this.

All up cost was about $500. Geez, even simon drove the bloody thing to QLD and back without issue. I would definitely look into it. I didn't run an intercooler just a good genuine SARD RR fuel pressure reg. Filled up on 98. Pulled 5psi max and I think it was dynoed at 70kwkw or something, however that was when the computer was breaking down over 4000rpm, 5 years after being built (not from S/C related damage). It is still today going strong and I believe it has an aftermarket ECU. It would be easier on a G16b as you could use the amr500 supercharger, however I still think that with the Baleno motor you are unable to play with timing, correct? Let me know if you have any questions or would like to know how it was set up.

[sierrajim]

So this will do as the regulator?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SARD-Racing- ... 27d08c8206

[Brenno]

I would get one from a reputable dealer as there are so many copies out there. It would be wise to get one with a gauge as well. Also get a proper wide band sensor so you can check your afrs.

[Rhinoman]

JrZook wrote:

Rhinoman may know some info regarding the MAP sensor and the ECU limits.

The stock MAP runs to something like 1.3 bar but the baro reading updates at WOT so its likely to throw a MAP error on boost, you could use an interceptor but then all the other MAP related functions are going to on and off at the wrong load.

[Chairman]

The 1.6 with the auto just lacks a bit of zip for me.

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet ? But i had the same issue with my Auto vit lacking a bit of zip down low once i put 30's tyre's on, i change my automatic diff 4.875 ratio's over to the manual diff ratio 5.125 an notice a difference especially in the bottom end of each gear, it made all the difference for me no more strolling the grunt on hill climbs..
Cheaper alternative mind you a turbo vit would be super sweet in the dune's

[Gwagensteve]

You're completely right, but for vitaras most are already at 5.12, and in the case of jims car (and mine) were already at 6.5 transfer and 5.12 diffs, with 35" tyres, so we are geared as low as practical. They bigger problem for us is that a bit taller gearing would be nice, along with more torque, so we can develop more wheel speed on greasy hills.

Steve.

[SuziBlu]

Steve, go the NOS, I recon as I am going to, got a quote, but have to trailer it a long way, so a bit unsure, but then, dyno time maybe.

Bit over a grand for the setup and fitted, bottle not supplied.

[Gwagensteve]

It's off the table for now- I'd have to completely regear the car if I wanted to use it.

Steve