[Mike57]

I have a 2009 Jimny with manual transmission and the original electric transfer case. I had an air locker installed by ARB a few months ago and this problem may or may not be related to that.

On the last trip I did in the sand I noticed a very loud repetitive banging noise from the transfer case area when the drive train was under full load. I thought it was the exhaust hitting on something so yesterday I had the rear muffler replaced and some other work to make sure it was not the exhaust. I just went down to a steep hill nearby and did a hill start in 2 wheel drive. The loud chattering noise was still there, almost like a ratchet or a failed CV joint. If I use the handbrake on flat ground and take off in first gear it does the same thing. So it is related to loading up the drive train and I can rule out the front hubs, CV's or the front drive shaft.

In all other respects the car drives fine with no unusual noises or vibrations.

I felt all the universal joints and they seem to be solid. The car has only done 21,000 km.

I am thinking this must be the transfer case or the rear diff as I don't see this being a uni problem. What has me puzzled is that apart from when the drive train is under stress there are no other noises or vibrations. The noise certainly seems to be in the transfer case area and not down the rear.

I am out of ideas so if anyone has any thoughts I would welcome some fresh ideas. It is a VERY loud noise by the way and happens with or without rear diff lock engaged..

[joel]

transfer case mount?? gbox mount??
output shaft??

[Mike57]

Joel

Thanks. I checked all the mounts, engine, transfer case, and rear gearbox and they seem to be OK. No signs of cracking in the transfer mounts and while there is some movement (stretching) of the mounts it is not enough to allow the transfer to come into contact with anything. The noise is not from something hitting the under body of the car, it is not a thudding, but like a broken CV joint.

I felt the output shaft by hand and no movement, by output you mean the transfer to diff or the gearbox to transfer?

Mike

[Scrawny]

I'd suggest things like transfer internals, crown wheel and/or pinion in rear diff or worn rear shaft slip joint but not at that mileage. I suppose it's out of warranty now?

[Mike57]

Yes Scrawn, out of warranty and many mods as well.

Could this be from the rear locker installation? I have a warranty on that at least but it seems more like its from the centre of the vehicle.

I am not sure what the rear shaft slip joint is? Is that on the rear drive shaft just behind the transfer?

Can the transfer gears or chain "jump" teeth without leaving behind any other symptoms and only under heavy load and not normal driving?

[Scrawny]

Slipping chain in the transfer was my first thought but I'm unsure if they run a chain or gears in those transfers. Once again, I wouldn't expect it to be an issue at that mileage but stranger things have happened.

The rear shaft has a slip joint to allow for movement of the diff. It has a spline that can wear, especially when there's suspension lift involved

[Scales]

Slipping chain mate. I had same thing under heavy clutch release on take off. Goes BANG BANG BANG? and stops as soon as you ease up? Definitely transfer chain. Time to source a wt box.

[Mike57]

Scales. That is exactly what it is doing. Will have to read Zukenutters thread again. Problem is I want to stay with the 215 tyres for the moment and I think the manual case will change the gearing. Do you know if the jumping chain causes other damage or is it just a case of some adjustment to fix it?

[Scales]

Yeah slipping chain sucks hey, Mine showed up when I was trying to reverse out of a bog-hole and my car was filling with water.... kinda a bad time to have zero tyre movement.

Why zukenutter? you've lost me there, he has manual box, and had to swap to a nonvvt box for the swap. I had the jumpy chain syndrome. (no offence to ZN)



I didnt realise you were auto, not sure on the effects there with the ratio change. Or even if you can fit a WT case behind the auto box. I just pretend you auto blokes dont exist


Ive been wondering myself if it is fixable or not, my old case has been sitting untouched in the shed for months now, so I cant tell you what damage it does.... If any. It could just be a stretched chain. Ill have to crack it open one day to see if I can re-co it. I dunno if there is a tensioner in there or anything. Might be worthwhile to see if you can get a new chain? or maybe its new sprocket/gears needed. im just spitballing here. would be awesome to come up with a way to fix them.

[Mike57]

Scales

Ah sorry to confuse you. I have a manual VVT Jimny. I thought that Zukenutter had the same but he must have the non VVT one. I know he had the push button and went to a stick shift. If I do the Sierra transfer case swap in to a VVT model how does that change the ratios? I see yours is an 03 so that was non VVT right? Probably a question you can't answer. I need to do some more reading.

[jimny_timmy]

To do the swap in yours, you'd need to change your gearbox to the earlier m series one, otherwise you'd have a 30odd% reduction straight up

[Mike57]

Thanks Jimny Timmy, I was just going back through Zukenutter's tech and found that info as below:

"The VVT gearbox is 20-30% lower than the Non VVT. If you plan on big tyres a Jimny lever operated transfer will bolt straight in, except for a custom intermediate shaft, and give you a 30% reduction. If you put a Sierra 1.3 you'll get a 40% reduction and a 1.0 Sierra transfer would be 50%. These percentages are roughly calculated and apply to high and low. So basically there is no sierra/Samurai transfer case that I can use with the VVT gearbox and still have similar ratio's at the end."

So that means the easy fix for the moment is to open the case, look to see what damage has been done and potentially replace the chain and see how long it lasts.

[Jaye]

Yep.

No tensioner inside. Either the chain has stretched or teeth are worn. Probably as said, it will be just a stretched chain and a relalitivly easy fix and possibly cheap. Very supprise anything is wrong with the little K's done. I know it goes off road but you arnt exaclty doing extreme stuff to damage it so early.

The chain should be very tight when its servicable. You pretty much should have no movement what so ever, when squeezing it in the middle.

[Mike57]

Looking at the prices for the chains that I can find in the web it may not be that cheap! Will need to call Suzuki tomorrow. I hope you are right Jaye. I am a bit puzzled about how this has happened as well. It started when I was sand driving and stalled out trying to get up a dune. I see you have the 09 manual as well. Sounds like you have come across this before?

[Scales]

yeah you confused me alright Mike, dunno how autos came into it. But yeah, ZN has a gearbox out of a car like mine. non-VVT vinyl spec for the win!
So you would be up for a pricey conversion for 2 boxes and the mounting kit.

Jaye what are you basing your cheap fix on? have you got prices on chains before? interested to know because I wouldnt mind fixing my box for a spare.

Let us know how you get on Mike

[Jaye]

Mike57 wrote:

Looking at the prices for the chains that I can find in the web it may not be that cheap! Will need to call Suzuki tomorrow. I hope you are right Jaye. I am a bit puzzled about how this has happened as well. It started when I was sand driving and stalled out trying to get up a dune. I see you have the 09 manual as well. Sounds like you have come across this before?

No, I haven't come across this before, but I have had my transfer case appart to fit reduction gears. It was only 25000km and in perfect condition, so I know how it should be when in the right condition.

Scales wrote:

yeah you confused me alright Mike, dunno how autos came into it. But yeah, ZN has a gearbox out of a car like mine. non-VVT vinyl spec for the win!
So you would be up for a pricey conversion for 2 boxes and the mounting kit.

Jaye what are you basing your cheap fix on? have you got prices on chains before? interested to know because I wouldnt mind fixing my box for a spare.

Let us know how you get on Mike

I couldnt imagine the chain to be too expensive, maybe a couple of hundred at the most. If Mike can pull it appart to inspect he will have the ability for fitting the chain, there for no labour, and if its only the chain and not the teeth damaged it will only be one part to replace. Just couldnt imagine the chain to be too expensive, I could be wrong though.

Fingers crossed Mike.

[Mike57]

Checked on the price for the Chain. $400 from Suzuki. Rang Suziworld and they confirmed that the only source is Suzuki. I am wondering if there is any possibility of it being the CV joint "thingy" that is in the rear drive shaft? That is the only other possibility. Just mentioning this because nearly everyone I phoned today has not heard of the drive chain stretching, although there are plenty of reports on this site as well as on Bigjimny. If you replaced the transfer box with a manual one this shaft would also have been replaced. Scales if you ever felt like opening your old case I would like to understand what you find and if your chain really is stretched?

[Jaye]

It does seem odd that it would stretch as just from the size of the chain and design of the case. Can you take it to ARB and play dumb and say you think its the diff. If its not they will rule it out and possibly come up with an explanation, all under warrinty.

Just play the "im no expert thing and they may give it a quick check and come up with something.

Supprised the chain was that expensive.

[Mike57]

Another bit of information. I spoke to a another dealer who has tells me that the "CV Joint thingy" in the rear drive shaft is known as a slip joint. He says if that gets dirt in it then it can make a fair noise as it grabs and releases so he suggests pulling that apart, cleaning it and regreasing it. He says it should pull apart. Has anyone tried doing that?

[Gwagensteve]

It's 100% not a conventional slip joint. It's a CV thingy.

THIS is a slip joint.



This is the joint I'm referring to, which allows for flex. As such it's a form of constant velocity joint.



I would want to rule out that before I pulled the case apart.

Bear in mind in your application it is operating at a greater angle (constantly) than it was designed for and is experiencing more torque. (due to the airlocker and grippy tyres)

Steve.

[Mike57]

Steve

Yes, that is a the joint that I am talking about. I am going to remove the rear drive shaft and take a look and then try the steep hill start in front wheel drive. That should sort it out. Will report again in a few weeks. I am not sure that the joint as shown in the photo can be dismantled if it is the problem?

Mike

[Gwagensteve]

No I don't think so.

You may find you can't generate enough traction in FWD to get the effect to occur, but it's worth a try.

If that joint was the problem, I would find a sierra driveshaft in good condition and have it retubed to the length you need, eliminating the CV jointy thingy. Probably cheaper, and user serivcable, even trackside.

Steve.

[Scales]

i honestly dont think its that CV making the noise.

when I had the problem I had no drive to the wheels when it was making the noise, just sorta pulsed drive and it was obviously slipping.


do you have drive 100% of the time mike? or is it pulse-drive (for lack of better term) because the CV on the shaft cant jump teeth.... 8 bolts and you can drop that shaft and look for yourself anyway. I really have my money on the case.



I cant open my case for a couple of weeks mike, im still at work. But its only a 30 minute job to drop the box out mate, if I were you i would drop the oil, take it out and have a squizz. They arent a complicated beast, well i know the non-vvt ones arent anyway.
Makes me wonder if theres a tensioner in there thats buggering things up.

Also, I would believe the word of owners on here and bigjimny before I listened to local mechanics anyday....


I rekon this is going to go one of 2 ways.

*You have a loose chain or gears are worn, and have to replace offending bit for 400 or whatever gear costs
*You source a non-vvt gearbox, a wt t-case and ORA adaptor for probably up to 1000 or more depending on if you reco box's or not etc.

My WT swap cost around 800 or so and I didnt require a gearbox. I had to do a bearing kit on the t-case and all the other bits add up

[Mike57]

Steve, I hope it is the CV thingy, that sounds a lot less expensive! The hill in Templestowe is pretty steep so I expect even in front wheel drive it will stress the transfer case. I could also tie the back to a tree. I will find a way.

Scales, I think you are right about the Suzuki dealer mechanics. They never see any modified vehicles but I did speak to Suziworld and the Suzistore and both cast doubts on the transfer chain having stretched. The main report of the chain stretching seems to come from the Bigjimny site. Anyway this should be a good learning experience to add to the knowledge pool.

Mike

[Scales]

Okay, if we say hypothetically that the chain doesnt stretch, then the teeth on the gears are worn down. Im not sure anyone has bothered to pull the case apart and look before, but its certainly peaked my interest.


If you have doubt on the CV, dont bother doing any on-road testing. Just pull the shaft out and have a look, a lot more conclusive.

[Gwagensteve]

I've heard of a few vitara chains stretching, but that's with reduction gears and at more km's than mikes.

I also asked about the feeling of lost drive. The car should pulse or shudder really noticeably if the chain is slipping.

Steve.

[Mike57]

To be honest the noise was so loud that I didn't pay that much attention to whether the car was jerking forward or not. It was certainly still moving forward while it was making the noise but there was no vibration in the cabin. That was all I noticed. Don't recall it shuddering.

Scales, at 20,000 km I don't expect worn teeth and I would not have thought that the car has been badly treated unless that happened in the first 4,000 km before I purchased it as a demo and even then the car had never been off the bitumen before I got it.

[Scales]

Hmmm... I know the level of noise you refer to, makes me think more and more its the case.

Drop the case Mike, split it and investigate.

[Mike57]

Yep I am going to remove the drive shaft first and then end the speculation by opening it up depending upon the drive test results. Will report back in 2 or 3 weeks.

[zukenutter]

That was quite a read.
I think the removal of rear shaft and load testing is the first thing to do, will rule out the rear shaft cv and the rear diff and all bearings in the rear axle.

If the rear is ruled out after that I'd suggest that your gearbox rear output bearing may be close to disintegrating. This happened to mine while it was stock and with only 40,000kms. Ours had the bearing totally disintegrated leaving only the inner and outer race in place, the output was then able to bounce around against the other cogs. I don't what the symptoms were leading up to detonation as mrs zn was DD'ing the Jimny at that time. She doesn't notice noises, smells or vibrations.

Once stuffed symptom was a binding feeling then a release with a bang but I imagine lead up symptom would be much like you've described. I originally misdiagnosed it as damage to rear ring and pinion.

Vvt manual gearboxes are susceptible to this, there's been a few on AZ have this happen.


Also I remember someone having a problem with their auto hubs wanting to randomly engage during driving which caused a ratcheting sound I think/imagine.