[ko2_koko]

Any one done a coil conversion on a Suzuki Sierra TYPE 4???? I also have a few ln106 hilux's floating around so i was thinking engine and drive train out of them into it

[pezz]

type 4?
do you mean sj410/413?


sounds like you will be better off coiling the lux
why bother having a lux engine, gearbox, transfer and diffs in a little sierra chassy... when a lux chassy is built for it
doing all that to a sierra just takes away the reasons that a sierra is good

[Fatzook]

i think a type 4 is the first of the 1.3's.

[ko2_koko]

I have a coil lux and a leaf lux, I don't have a zook and I have a shit load of lux parts. Don't you have trouble putting hilux diffs under zook because of the drive shaft angles?

[Gwagensteve]

Yes... I have,

But I have no idea what a type 4 sierra is.

[ko2_koko]

Sj 410. Could I use Tj jeep coils and shocks?

[jono165]

so you're essentially re-shelling a hilux?
if you are putting the entire running gear and engine out of a hilux you are going to want more wheel base (than a swb zook) so i think you might end up just building what is essentially another hilux.

I'm not sure if its hilux or bundera diffs you need but the ones with the offset pumpkin are the right ones and as long as you don't have stupid suspension lift the angles will be ok. The advantages of a Suzuki are light weight and narrow track, hilux diffs and driveline will add a lot of weight and bulk.

[ko2_koko]

so if i dont use hilux diff do i just laminate the diffs and put a stronger axel in them???

[atari4x4]

yes you can, could also use patrol coils & shocks or 80 series landcruiser coils & shocks.

[jono165]

See here for building a Suzuki based rear setup, this will run 35's with no issues
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38240

For the front a set of chromo axles and cv's from somewhere like trail tough will run 35's, hub bolts work well as a fuse and make easy replacement if they break.

35's are really about the biggest you can run on a Suzuki based driveline reliably.

[atari4x4]

ko2_koko wrote:

so if i dont use hilux diff do i just laminate the diffs and put a stronger axel in them???

your edited post now make me look crazy... you were asking about jeep TJ wrangler shocks & springs.

[ko2_koko]

your edited post now make me look crazy... you were asking about jeep TJ wrangler shocks & springs. [/quote]

sorry about that, realized i ask that question up the page

[Gwagensteve]

Shocks and what's used for springs are mostly irrelevant. It's like worrying about the intercooler and turbo for a turbo conversion
- they're the easy bit.

Steering and link geometry, link choice and fabrication, desired ride height, wheel travel, planned use, wheel base- they are all primary concerns. Springs and shock choice comes after all this.

Coil conversions are complicated and hard.

Steve.

[ko2_koko]

Ok then start simple then. Front end first, 3 link with panhard rod?? Rose, heim, johnny or the good old rubber bushes. Material?? MS pipe, chromoly, solid???

[Gwagensteve]

Wow mate- if you need to ask the question.....

How about starting with detailed answers to all my other questions? At the moment the only possible answer to any question is "maybe"

Also- engineering for road legality? Tyre size?

I think you need to do lots and lots of research and reading- more research will answer most of your questions.

Very few people have completed this sort of conversion, and many of those aren't road driven so they are willing to trade off poor behaviour for hektik flex. You'll need to have a very detailed understanding of the performance parameters you are trying to achieve before you start this or you are going to end up with an unfinished project.

Steve.

[ko2_koko]

Road legal would be good, I will probably only run 33's

[Fatzook]

Gwagensteve wrote:

How about starting with detailed answers to all my other questions?

ko2_koko wrote:

Road legal would be good, I will probably only run 33's

that's your idea of detailed answers?

[Gwagensteve]

I don't want to sound patronising, but you really need to do a LOT more research and reading.

Have a good look at this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2072

That's a hilux/bundera diff build on coils. (well, coilovers actually, but that's not all that relevant). It is/was engineered to be legal in NSW, but there's been a bunch of legislation changes since it was commenced, at it might be very difficult to replicate legally now.

You could also have a look at my build which is simpler and less spendy, but isn't engineer approved.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13839

In short though, I don't think it's possible to have a legal car on 33's using suzuki diffs. It might be possible to have a legal car on 33's on hilux/bundera diffs, but that might not be a net gain in capability - you'd need to look into that very carefully.

Id be very surprised if you could get engineer approval on anything other than factory rubber bushes. Engineers don't like "rose" or heim joints, and might even struggle with jonny joints, due to a lack of engineering data.

As for link material, that would be a discussion to have with your engineer. They'd prefer to specify that I'd reckon. They'd probably also prefer to see an off-the-shelf link used from a different vehicle. That means they don't have to do the engineering on the part - if it was strong enough for a heavier car, it will be fine on a Sierra.

A three link front might be a problem for many engineers. It's not ever been used in a factory application and there are potential issues with bushing load and thrust load on the upper link that will make an engineer nervous. It might be possible, but you'll have to be prepared to do lots of justification.

At the end of all this though, what's feasible and desirable is very dependant on what you want to achieve. Like I said, many of these projects are never completed, never work well, or aren't safe to drive on road, and that's irrespective of whether they were approved by an engineer or not.

There's no formula, unfortuately. Everyone has a slightly different answer to the first set of questions about the car setup I posed and that has a huge bearing on the outcome. Obviously, you are intending road use, so you'll have to take a more conservative approach, with more vigilance on road handling than an offroad-only build. That's much, much harder than building a car that looks hektik on a ramp, and might take you away from your "ideal" performance in other areas, it might also take you closer to a factory suspension configuration.

If you want anything other than general advice, you'd be best to answer, in some detail, the questions I was posing in my first detailed response, but I'l elaborate on them here:

Genuine desire for road legality? - as in consulting an engineer -
Tyre size
Ride height
Wheelbase
Desired compression travel
Desired wheel travel - this will have a major bearing on design
How much guard work are you willing to do? This will have a major bearing on car setup
Use - Road/Comp/Social/touring
are you a lover or a hater? (as in do you finesse obstacles or like to punch it?)
Terrain? (dont just say "rock crawling" - we've been here before: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=34158
Who are you wheeling with? Do yo have a inspirational car you've driven with you'd like to surpass/match in performance? This is really critical. Lots of people build up theoretical fantasy cars, but you need to have something to aim at for performance. The simplest (as in closest to standard) car that meets your performance expectations is generally the best outcome. That might mean RUF and 31's will do all you need.
Road bias? Occasional road use/trailer any distance, or daily driving/highway capable
Axle choice is pretty critical - if you stay Suzuki there are advantages and disadvantages - Sierra axles weren't designed for front links/coils, and this has implications for steering configuration
Budget - no point getting into it and running out of funds.
Motivation - have you built a car ground up before? These projects are notoriously difficult to finish. It only takes a few hours to pull apart a car enough that you can't ever complete it.


Anyway, please don't think I'm being negative or condescending. You're asking questions that kind of imply you're new to this sort of build, and I'm trying to help you go in with your eyes wide open.

Steve.

[atari4x4]

Gwagensteve wrote:

unfinished project.

Steve.

UFP's

[ko2_koko]

thanks for that info, am going to have a chat to the engineer on friday to see what he will engineer

[jono165]

Look at vsb14 that's the guidelines the engineer will follow and will tell you the limitations of what can be passed. Theres a section designated to each area ie suspension, brakes, body mods etc. From this you then need to work out what you can do within these regs. ie too much suspension lift can't be engineered but there's pretty much no limit to how far you can guard chop until you hit the bonnet. Engineering tyres on Suzuki gear isn't really feasible so you might end up being able to pass everything except tyres which isn't too bad.
It's very important to know why you're going down this path and what you want to achieve. The engineer will assist in the how its done, they won't tell you what to do just what you can't do. It's quite possible to have an engineered at that doesn't work that's why it's very important to find a similar build, without a similar build to use for inspiration/guidance I'd be lost.

[ko2_koko]

had a quick look vsb14 and the sub section NCOP11 and APPENDIX C, correct me if i am wrong but the use of heim joint and johnny joint would be legal, the maximum travel of the suspension is 2/3rds of the standard travel. any one know what the standard travel of the sj410 is??? the welding part is easy. another question is what is a standard tyre size??? as long as i stud brace any bolt hole through the chassis and chassis brace, double plate the chassis at fatigue pionts. non corrosive materials are preferred. and what i can figure use as many oem parts of a out of a standard coil vehicle.

[missmyljdaze]

From what I understand, rose joints are either no longer acceptable, or frowned upon due to quality being hard to assess.
[cheap counterfeits floating around in the market]

No engineer would be happy to stake his reputation on an unknown quality suspension or steering component.

Probably much easier to initially build with conventional OEM rubber bushes- and later swap them out with bushes made from the correct grade of urethane.

One of the fellas on this forum [apologies for not remembering his name ATM] is the guru for custom suzuki bushes.
His products are better quality, and better researched than commercially available mass manufactured ones.
Mass produced urethane bushes are usually all made from the same grade of urethane, guru's ones are made of different grades to suit each particular components application.

Standard travel= as a rule of thumb, measure the gap between the bump stop rubber and its contact point of the chassis, with your vehicle loaded as if ready for driving.

Standard tyre size= does your zook have a tyre placard fitted? if it does, that will have the info you need.
If not, an owners handbook or workshop manual should help.

stephen

[DMAC]

missmyljdaze wrote:

One of the fellas on this forum [apologies for not remembering his name ATM] is the guru for custom suzuki bushes.
His products are better quality, and better researched than commercially available mass manufactured ones.

That would be "Bruce"

[ko2_koko]

Urethane bushes it is then. This is another question could u use a hydraulic bump stop to get a higher lift on longer travel?

[Zook_Fan]

Hydraulic bump stops don't stop the axle until it is fully collapsed and so that is the measurement that would count, not the measurement from the pad to the diff when the shaft is fully extended.

[atari4x4]

missmyljdaze wrote:

From what I understand, rose joints are either no longer acceptable, or frowned upon due to quality being hard to assess.
[cheap counterfeits floating around in the market]

No engineer would be happy to stake his reputation on an unknown quality suspension or steering component.

page 27 http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... 1%20v3.pdf

Quote:

Heim joints are also known as a rose joints and spherical rod ends.

The Heim joint is a rod end bearing, refer to Figure LS7, that may be used on the end of control
rods, steering links, tie rods, or anywhere a precision articulating joint is required. They
comprise a ball swivel with an opening through which a bolt or other attaching hardware may
pass that is pressed into a circular casing with a threaded shaft attached. The threaded portion
may be either male or female.

Heim joints are made to a variety of standards in terms of strength and durability. Early
versions were prone to failure and had a poor durability history. As a result Heim joints must
only be used in critical applications such as steering and suspension if they meet all of the
following criteria:

The movement of the rod/component to which the joint is attached does not exceed the
allowable articulation angle of the Heim joint as specified by the Heim joint manufacturer;

The Heim joint does not hang up on existing components; and

A signatory confirms that the Heim joint has sufficient durability and strength in all directions for its intended purpose.

It is strongly recommended that Heim joints be protected by suitably designed dust covers to reduce the risk of premature wear

[ko2_koko]

Think I will go the safe option and use bushes. Them once it is signed off build arms with johnny a in them.

[ko2_koko]

I can't find in it any material specs

[Gwagensteve]

atari4x4 wrote:

missmyljdaze wrote:

From what I understand, rose joints are either no longer acceptable, or frowned upon due to quality being hard to assess.
[cheap counterfeits floating around in the market]

No engineer would be happy to stake his reputation on an unknown quality suspension or steering component.

page 27 http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... 1%20v3.pdf

Quote:

The Heim joint does not hang up on existing components; and

A signatory confirms that the Heim joint has sufficient durability and strength in all directions for its intended purpose.

There's the key. You need to get someone to sign them off, and that's not always going to be easy. I reckon they suck for road use anyway- rattly squeaky clunky things at the best of times.

Steve.