[lightly]

Hey guys I've search the web for this and couldn't find the info I wanted so thought I'd ask here.
Does anyone got and links, info about the difference with the type 1-6 for the sierra Jx?

(not trying to start a debate) what are the main difference with the jimny and sierra, beside the general electrics in the jimny.
Would i be better of getting a jimny then a older sierra? I've seen a few around the same price range and it would be nice having central locking and eletric windows but
it wouldn't bother me to much.

sierra. easier/harder access to parts and to get fixed?
better off road stock?
Not as comfy as a jimny?

jimny.
Electrics
more comfy?
better fuel economy with the newer motor? (or roughly the same?)
:: Difference with insurance?
:: Parts are more expensive?
Not as old, so less rust.

[sideways]

Sierra. (Assuming WT model)

Pros.

Extensive, cheap aftermarket support.
Good off road.
Very easy to modify/very modifiable.
Parts are cheap and easy to fit.

Cons.

Crap to drive.
Luxuries are limited to intermittent wipers, a heater and a really crap stereo. A/C if you're really lucky.
Getting old (if that's a concern to you).

Jimny.

Pros.

More comfortable/user friendly than a Sierra.
More power.
Growing aftermarket support.
Depending on the model, power steering, auto gearbox, electric everything ect is available.
Still a current model, thus less likely to be a lemon.

Cons

Fatter body is more susceptible to off road damage, and more expensive to fix.
Harder to modify than a Sierra, smaller gaurds, more complicated body.
Suspension design is limiting, as opposed to a Sierra where you can get awesome results with little work.
Less/more expensive aftermarket support than a Sierra.
Weaker driveline than a 1.3l Sierra, in particular the CVs are smaller, the autos are particlarly weak and the radius arm mounts are know to crack.
More expensive to modify vs a sierra.
Quite a bit bigger but hardly any more interior space.

Fuel economy varies so wildly (in Sierras) that it's hard to say, generally Jimnys are better (and consistent, given their fuel injection and age) but a Sierra can be as good as a Jimny. There's outliers like my sierra which did a whopping 16l per 100, but that's with big carby jets, 30s and a BHG.

Parts availability isn't an issue for either.

Basically, if you intend to do a lot of hard core stuff and intend to modify it extensively then a Sierra is the way to go. For more normal stuff like beach trips and mild technical stuff, a Jimny is the way to go.

A Jimny can be made to perform as well as a built Sierra, but it takes a lot more work and cubic dollars if you can't fabricate stuff. 31zooks Jim is the best example IMO. You'l still have the limitation of the fat body that is harder to fix though.

[sideways]

And now for the different models.

The type 1-6 system that carsales uses isn't really used anywhere else except for 1ls.

Basically this is how the sierra timeline goes. This is all as far as I can remember, near enough accurate anyway.

1981, Type 1 1l (SJ40) is released.

1982-3, type 2 1l (SJ40).

1984 1.3 NT (SJ50) and type 3 1l (SJ40).

1988 1.3l WT (SJ70) realeased, 1l model axed.

1996 1.3 coily (SJ80).




1ls (more correctly known as SJ40) have a 1l engine, 4 speed gearbox, narrow track diffs (with 6.5" crownwheels) and no brake booster.

Type 1 had a drum brake front end, steel dash and the early "non switch" transfer case.

Type 2 updated to disc brakes on the front and the "light switch" transfer case.

Type 3 was basically a 1.3l with 1l mechancals.

1.3ls have a 5 speed gear box, plastic dashes, bigger diffs, disc brakes, brake booster ect.

SJ50 is the model code for early 1.3ls with the "narrow track" diffs.

SJ70 is the "wide track" 1.3ls had wider diffs, metal flares (except very early ones), wider spring spacing, slightly smaller tyres, a different dash, higher diff gears and a lower 5th gear ratio.

The SJ80 is the coil sprung model. Pretty much everything is different to the other models aside from the general look. Their suspension design is flawed and there isn't much aftermarket support for them. They have by far the nicest interior but still not exactly luxurious.

Stock for stock, a 1l is the best offroad* due to having bigger tyres (pov spec models also had bartreads, allowing you to legally run bigger tyres than other models), lower gearing and no anti roll bar (on early models). They're gutsy on the road, making up for the lack of power over the 1.3l with revs. 110km/h is 5000RPM, which it will happily do all day but you sure wont! They're generally no slower than a 1.3l, but are painful on the high way because of all the noise. Because all the mechanicals are different to the 1.3l, there's practically no aftermarket support aside from suspension, body lift and things like that. 1ls have a slated grill and IMO, look the best and have more personality.

The SJ80 is pretty much the pointless middle ground between the Sierra and the Jimny. Basically they have next to no aftermarket support and have a flawed suspension design. They've got a nicer interior, but still not as nice as a Jimny. Having said that, they'l do all the mild wheeling you could want, whilst being more comfortable than a normal Sierra and retaining the Sierra look.

SJ50 or SJ70 is the pick of the bunch, massive aftermarket support, easy to mod, easy to get parts for, tons of knowledge on modding them. Pick an SJ50 if you're going to be doing really hard core stuff so you can fit WT diffs for extra flex, but really the sky is the limit with either.

I wish I could write like this on the lab report I'm meant to be doing right now.

* I call off road technical stuff, the 1.3ls would be better in sand due to having more power.

[lightly]

Thanks sideways for taking time to write that it was very helpful

[2stroker]

When I saw lightly's question I thought how do I answer that, it is definately not a two line response and is going to take some explaining, well done Sideways.

[krat]

Wow.
What an informative write up on the Sierras.
As a Vitara driver, I never quite understood the differences. I did of course catch on that a coily was not the way to go.

Well done sideways.

[sideways]

Thanks guys, good to know someone appreciates my posts. I've been meaning to type up something like that for the good tech section for Sierras and LJs, must have typed all that 3-4 times now. I don't know enough about Vits and Jimnys to type that for them though.

I'm just sticking this PM reply here so others can see, if anyone knows can they post up the right date for when Marutis went WT?

lightly wrote:

Hey sideways thanks for replying to my post, just thought I'd send you a pm asking one or two more things instead of putting up a another post.

Between the sierra SJ and the Maruti, is there much difference in build?
Are the maruti easy to mod?

For the sake of those who don't know, a Maruti is an Indian built LWB Sierra sold here after Suzuki stopped selling Suzuki built LWBs here. They came in either wellbody or trayback body styles and were the last Sierras sold here. They're generally badged as Suzuki Stockmans.

All Marutis sold here are 1ls, they have a gearbox that you can put the 5 speed gear set from a 1.3l into but there's not much point because the motor will struggle to pull it. They have a light switch transfer (1l ratios) and a few differences in the chassis.

There's 2 types of Marutis, a NT version that ran from the late 80s until about 94 and a WT one that ran from then until 2000.

NTs had 1l style diffs, you can't get lockers or chromos for them.

WTs had 1.3l style WT diffs with 4.1:1 ratios (lower than a Suzuki built 1.3l), you can get pretty much anything for these.

Trayback ones are simply a wellbody style one with the back chopped off and a fiberglass roof. This means there's more interior space than a normal Sierra trayback and if you roll you can normally get away with just replacing the roof, door, b pillar and windscreen frame instead of the whole cab. You can also go roofless and fold the windscreen down which is awesome.

The Marutis are a bit worse build quality but lets face it, Seirras are nothing special either.

IMO, a LWB is twice the car a SWB is. Get one if you can. Much nicer to drive, ride better, generally better offroad. A tray back NT Maruti is the ultimate Sierra to me. 1l motor, 1l grill, LWB, removable roof, NT spring spacing (so you can fit WT diffs for better flex), can fit a tank guard, no back panels to damage and all that space under the tray to put a long range tank, extra battery ect.

[lightly]

Thanks mate, thought I would pm you I wasn't sure if you would check this post for a reply if i posted it back in this.
I've always had a soft spot for the trayback/ute lwb sierra/maruti, It's a shame they're pretty rare to find but i won't be
getting a another car till at least 3 months so i got some time to look around anyways.

[BlueSuzy]

Find a cheap jimny and upgrade the front diff. You will then be in sierra capability and price territory. I prefer efi but everyones different

[Mike57]

I think Sideways summed it up very well. Great job there Sideways. From my perspective I went for the comfort of aircon and power steering for longer trips. It all depends upon what you want to do with it.

[sideways]

Mike57 wrote:

I think Sideways summed it up very well. Great job there Sideways. From my perspective I went for the comfort of aircon and power steering for longer trips. It all depends upon what you want to do with it.

Cheers.

And yeah, I went the other way and got an LJ. I don't even have air vents, let alone real luxuries like intermittent wipers or stereos with FM and 2 speakers. Different strokes for different folks.

[stem1]

How does the NT with WT diffs end up with more flex than a WT with WT diffs? Is it because the spring perches are in further and for a given shock stroke the end of the axle cuts a larger arc, or something else? To do this conversion, are the spring pads simply cut off and rewelded at the NT measurement?
What is a "well body"?
Thanks

[tanshi]

stem1 wrote:

How does the NT with WT diffs end up with more flex than a WT with WT diffs? Is it because the spring perches are in further and for a given shock stroke the end of the axle cuts a larger arc,
Thanks

yes

[Bugsta]

A bit of info on the Jimnys

There are essentially 3 models. 4 now if you take into account the new 2013 model with the face lift. Aside from a couple of front on pics, I don't know anything about the new version. I think its the same car otherwise.

I won't go into the specifics, in part, because I don't know them all, but its probably irrelavent to the OP's question.

MKI
G13bb EFI engine
Stick transfer case

MKII
M13a DOHC EFI engtine
Stick transfer case

MKIII
M13aa DOHC EFI VVT engine
Electronic transfer case/4WD
All new ratios. Airbags, Good engine options.

ABS is an option in the MKIII. Don't know about I and II.

[stem1]

What years did they switch between the MK1, 11, 111?
Thanks

[Bugsta]

I think 2000, then 2004 respectively.

[stem1]

Is there a similar run down for the Vitaras? Also, I've done a search for "sierra vs Vitara" but turned up nothing, I'm assuming there's been discussions on the pros and cons of modified versions of each, can someone steer me in the right direction? From what I've been reading, vitaras need a steel front diff, but are they more resistant to breakage with bigger tires or is it more or less the same process with chromo axles, cvs etc? Are the rear diffs/axles inherently stronger. What about capability with a 3inch lift vs a sierra with a similar set up?
Thanks

[Bugsta]

Just the basics I know...

The changeover from an alloy diff to a steel diff is a common upgrade. Also using a diff drop bracket to reduce front axle angle with lift. IFS has the advantage of better ground clearance but limited in the flex.

They are generally better power to weight ratio than Sierras and Jimnys with stock motors. The GVs are a heavier car though and the later ones i believe aren't really suited to serious off road, again, without major upgrades and protection bars. Having said that, I have seen some good performers. The later ones are more equipped and more comfortable. If you are looking for a tourer, for the family perhaps, that is reasonably capable off road, a GV would be the obvious choice. A Sierra or Jimny just isn't big enough for a long haul family trip.

I think the Vitaras are just as prone to breaking CV's as any other, but again with upgrades, this can be considerably reduced.

A GV with a 2"~3" lift, drop bracket, steel conversion, side steps, front and rear bar, lockers and perhaps a winch and you'd be on your way to a pretty nice tourer. Throw in some lights, UHF, roof basket and some accessories. Perhaps an exhaust upgrade to get a little extra out of it.

Of course, Vit owners will be able to offer far more detail, but I thought you might like to hear what a non-vit owner thinks.

Jimny and later GVs are going to be more expensive to fix, panel wise and motor wise in the more recent VVT series.

[stem1]

Thanks! Can the 4 speed auto easily replace the earlier 3 speed? Is there much modification involved? Is there much involved in replacing the 5 speed manual with the 4 speed auto? Are these easy to find and what roughly is the going price for one?
With the front diff, is it an alloy housing with a removable third member type set up?

[atari4x4]

IMO you're better off just buying a vitara with the 4 speed already in it, you'll save money in the long run... it's a big job to swap everything over & ideally you'd want the complete donor car as there are many bits that need swapping ... the 3 speed is only found in the carby SWB vitara's & they're getting old + they're the least powerful of the vitara line up. the AW4 4 speed is computer controlled will require one of JrZook's little black boxes to get it to work in a carby vit, the traumatic is your generic 3 speed tri-matic auto found in older holdens.

the alloy front diff has a removable alloy third member, when swapping in a GV steel diff you need to use the 5.12:1 R&P & diff centre from the vitara & have it built up in the steel GV 3rd.

[sideways]

stem1 wrote:

Thanks! Can the 4 speed auto easily replace the earlier 3 speed? Is there much modification involved? Is there much involved in replacing the 5 speed manual with the 4 speed auto? Are these easy to find and what roughly is the going price for one?
With the front diff, is it an alloy housing with a removable third member type set up?

The only way to put the 4 speed (AW4) in is to put the fuel injected G16b (or J20a! ) in with it. The ECU controls the gearbox, that's why carby vits use the mechanically controlled trimatic.

JrZook has been developing a control box for the AW4 so it can be used with other engines, I don't how that's going though.

Edit: beaten

[stem1]

Thanks. How many k's of street use are the G16b and J20a motors averaging before needing a rebuild? Is the AW4 also in need of a rebuild by then and what is the cost roughly?
What year did the AW4s start?

[atari4x4]

AW4's are in all LWB Vitara's & it wasn't until the SWB's got EFI in late 94 that they had the 4 speed auto.

on the engine thing... how long's a piece of string? there are way to many variable to give a set number. eg lack of servicing, thrashed, babied, overheated etc etc.

plenty of G16b's with 250+ on the clock & more, they do tend to suffer from cracked blocks in various spots. the J20a has a timing chain that can suffer from rattle. although mine had 180 on & had no chain rattle.

[stem1]

Ok, with the G16b, if you are looking at one to buy, what are the tell tale signs of a cracked block? Anything specific to look at with the J20a?
Are there some threads on what to inspect when buying one of these vehicles? The search has been narrowed down to '94-'03 swb auto.

[atari4x4]

if you're after a SWB, i would buy either a SV420 which is last of the first shape Vitara's or a SQ420 (GV) both have the J20a & AW4.

there is some good info in this thread, the general body/running gear stuff is applicable to all vitara's
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14207&hilit=brakes+vitara

[stem1]

Thanks for that link, that was useful. I've been having a good look Australia wide for these things and they mostly have over 220ks on them, which puts them more or less at the end of their first life, when do the AW4s need a rebuild and what's the approximate cost?

[stem1]

I was talking to the owner of one and he was saying that after putting new front struts in and putting the rear wheels on the front it still starts wobbling over 70kph. Could this be the king pin bearing "death wobble" I've been reading about with the Jimnys?

[atari4x4]

no king pins on a vitara being IFS, i reckon your mate needs to get his wheels balanced.

NFI on the rebuild costs on an auto... the AW4 is used in the 4.0l jeeps & some V6 Pajero's so behind a vitara they're pretty much understressed & they're a pretty strong transmission to start with.

here is one with 140tho http://www.carsales.com.au/private/deta ... =1&sdmvc=1

there was a black auto for sale in SA recently with under 90thou, he is a member on here but it's not on gumtree anymore so he's either sold it or keeping it. my first one had 70k & my current one had 84k when i picked it up.

[Bugsta]

atari4x4 wrote:

the traumatic is your generic 3 speed tri-matic auto found in older holdens.

REEALLY????

I have about 9 of them. Some in vehicles, some in bits and a few complete.

[atari4x4]

Bugsta wrote:

atari4x4 wrote:

the traumatic is your generic 3 speed tri-matic auto found in older holdens.

REEALLY????

I have about 9 of them. Some in vehicles, some in bits and a few complete.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-Hydramatic_180