[atari4x4]

Jameszook wrote:

filter = purpose
spoilar = wank

what's a spoilar?

i'm guessing it's the fitting kit for the pod, as it's going to spoil-yar engine.

[JrZook]

atari4x4 wrote:

it's going to spoil-yar engine.

Boooooom tish!!! lol

[atari4x4]

Jameszook wrote:

ive had a pod filter on my jinmy, it went wel after. betta in high revs

care to back that statement up with some facts, got a dyno run before & after?

here are some #tag flat brimmers that will prove otherwise + they speak your lingo

[Heideisadog]

Oh wow, what did I do!!

For less the $35 and about 15 mins I'm happy with what I personally have noticed, without all the mumbo jumbo technical talk and the like trying to prove what my "Hectic" processing part of my brain is telling/ relaying back to me.
Even if it is tested and tried over and over again with dynos and gadgets it's still going to stay in my car for now seeing as (could be my imagination) it seems to be having a positive affect on my car!

And you say it's slowly corroding my engine cylinders, I'm going to take a risk for now. It's not going to be on long. Just until I get around to installing my snorkel and then on goes the stick standard airbox again.

[Marko_SJ]

^^^ .

This escalated nicely while I was away.

[Heideisadog]

The_Amateur wrote:

^^^ .

This escalated nicely while I was away.

My exact thought!

[Mike57]

A question for GwagenSteve. I read your filter rant some time ago and as a result removed my K&N filter and went back to paper. Recently I fitted a Donaldson pre-cleaner to the snorkel. It seems to work very well so now I have put the K&N back in. Is the K&N going to offer adequate filtering if a pre-cleaner is in place. I can't see any dust at all on the K&N but is it just that the very fine particles that are making it through the pre-cleaner are also making it through the K&N oiled cotton filter? Any thoughts?

[kenn]

Look for dust on the intake side of the filter, the oil will make it stick to the intake.

[Gwagensteve]

As has been discussed before, visible dust on the intake side of the filter is way beyond bad filtration. Dust doesn't have to be visible to damage the motor.

Mike, the pre cleaner only works in a certain flow range. Below that, they don't remove much. In any case, I bet they remove very little of the finest particles as they won't be heavy enough to be spun into the bowl.

I wouldn't reduce my filter efficiency on the grounds I was running a pre cleaner. I also bet the precleaner presents more intake restriction than the filter medium.

Steve.

[russgt]

Coming from racing WRX's I totally agree with Steve. Pod filters are the best marketing rubbish ever made! People who have no idea froth on about pod filters, K&N filters etc. Complete bull crap!

I used to have photos of my inlet track post K&N Filter. It was covered in smeared oily dust. I took it out and threw it away. Stock paper filters FTW!

To the OP, you are feeling a placebo effect. You wont agree straight away. But when you are older you will realise. Much like all the people who now hang their heads in shame for ever having stupidly heavy chrome rims or neon lights on their cars.

[droverdave]

The only way to really determine a performance increase is to measure the pressure at the turbo inlet or the throttle body inlet (or carburettas somewhere just before the carby)

If a filter has infact helped with flow, then you will have less vacuum at these points.

[tanshi]

clearly the dyno says thats there is no performance increase, so flow is irrelevant.

[Gwagensteve]

X2. Surely the way of measuring a performance increase would be on a dyno?

Or do you mean a performance increase of the filter? If that's the case, you'd measure that on a test bench with test media, or on a vehicle with oil analysis.

As I've said, the filter is rarely the cause of restriction. It's often the piping in between the filter and the throttle body.

Steve

[droverdave]

yer i guess i was coming from the idea that that the restriction caused by the filter/intake piping will cause a pressure difference, which is measuable. So in a way yes this is measuring the performance of the air filter.

Weather this equates to a performance increase at the engine is measurable on the dyno, but id expect with the difference it is going to make (stuff all) it will be within the tolerance of the dyno's results so potentially not measurable on the dyno.

(im having difficulty explaining what im thinkin here), but dynos cant measure the transient responses of the engine easily, i guess also known as the throttle response, so although you might not have any actual power gains, its possible that it will make the throttle response better. Which might be what the OP is experiencing. If this makes sense.

And having less pressure drop through the intake system will make the transient response better, but i think its difficult to quantify by how much (without some crazy CFD type stuff)

[sbyard]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Nope. I don't like the stock sierra housing. The filter itself is fine, it's well sized. The intent was there - the basics of a cyclonic filter housing are there.

The problem it just doesn't seal very well. It also doesn't have a proper dust trap. It has a hole for the dust/water to fall out.

I like 80's hiace filters.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21532

Hi Gwagen,

Why specifically 80's hiace filters? Presumably something like this will do the same thing: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TOYOTA-HIACE ... 4acb638913

Cheers,

Sam

[Gwagensteve]

I came across an 80's hiace filter and thought it would work and was well designed, that's why I like them.

I'm sure there are a number of similar air boxes which will work equally well.

However, that later model Hiace box might not be a good candidate - as it's plastic, it's going to be much harder to modify the piping locations or mounts. It also looks to be bigger in diameter, so it might be more hassle to fit under the bonnet.

Steve.

[Jezza86]

sbyard wrote:

Presumably something like this will do the same thing: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TOYOTA-HIACE ... 4acb638913

Cheers,

Sam

it looks smaller, and if it is it will do the same thing, but for less time.
Pic stolen from steve viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21532

[GeckoXL7]

Very interesting read!
http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html

[Gwagensteve]

I read that stuff some years ago.

I think this is the important bit for the click disabled, or those who can't be bothered reading science

"Compared to the AC, the K&N “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt. See the data tables for a complete summary of these comparisons."

Wonder why they don't put that on the side of the box?

Steve.

[GeckoXL7]

Yep ive gone from my ITG which is the only Foam filter i would recommend (for good Dust retention vs Air flow) back to a OEM Which really are deigned quite well, and i dont notice much difference in the city. And well i gather my airfillter box will remain cleaner, problem with ITG filters its hard to get the oil they need which is more of a static charged foam. I had to use the unifilter stuff which is CRAP!

Oiled filters as soon as it gets hot the oil sinks and pools clogging the filter to the point your engine is starving for air, i had my engine refuse to start at puppy springs which was a 42 degree day. all the oil pooled to the center and soaked the MAF sensor. This was a uni filter, i was lucky i had some MAFF cleaner and the ITG filter to get it started again.

[Marko_SJ]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I read that stuff some years ago.

I think this is the important bit for the click disabled, or those who can't be bothered reading science

"Compared to the AC, the K&N “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt. See the data tables for a complete summary of these comparisons."

Wonder why they don't put that on the side of the box?

Steve.

It also addresses the "if oiled filters are so bad, why does my dirtbike which sees heaps of dust and mud have one?"

Good article GeckoXL-7.

[JrZook]

How many k's is your dirt bike meant to last? 300000?

[GeckoXL7]

Dirt bikes are more tolerant too for dust and not that expensive to rebuild.

I cleaned my little cotton oiled filter when got back from Flinders and i was wondering which side of the filter had more crap in it, inside or out.

After seeing that i was looking around for other filters and found one that is like a ram but has a plastic case around it which gives it a cyclonic action to keep dust of the filter and only costs 15 compared to 6 for the standard one.

The ITG on the other hand was always dry and you could wipe a paper towl accoss it and wouldnt get dust or crap on the paper and it does hold heaps of dirt as i see everytime i wash it, takes a while to clean it properly. But sticking with OEM this summer!

[Marko_SJ]

JrZook wrote:

How many k's is your dirt bike meant to last?

article author wrote:

Now I am not saying that ALL aftermarket filters are useless. A paper filter does not do well if directly wetted or muddy. It may collapse. This is why many off-road filters are foam. It is a compromise between filtering efficiency and protection from a collapsed filter. Now how many of our vehicles collapse their filters from mud and water?

Roughly 50 hours between top ends. Not very long, and different conditions and expectations of the engine.

I'm not about to put a foam element in my car (if anything is going in, it will get a hi-ace one), and I'm not about to put a paper filter in my dirtbike.

Like I said, the article is good and knocks the dirtbike filter analogy on the head.

Dunno what you're hinting at

Gecko, I don't reckon they are more tolerant of dust. They just aren't supposed (or needed) to last very long between rebuilds.

[GeckoXL7]

Tolerant in the way there isnt much to the motors compared to cars.

I have not seen a paper Suzuki 4x4 oem filter there usually synthetic Microfiber, almost like cotton pretty much like a HEPPA filter, if it gets wet it doesnt collapse.
Note sure about Sierras though or carby motors.

[Marko_SJ]

GeckoXL7 wrote:

Tolerant in the way there isnt much to the motors compared to cars.

I have not seen a paper Suzuki 4x4 oem filter there usually synthetic Microfiber, almost like cotton pretty much like a HEPPA filter, if it gets wet it doesnt collapse.
Note sure about Sierras though or carby motors.

Getting a bit OT

Just looking at them, per cylinder the G series is actually way simpler than motorcycles, a WR or YZ has five valves in its head and two cams, and even my mates ancient RFS KTM looks like alien spaceship technology compared to the G's.

I cannot comment on M's or H's though.

Although there is no VVT (on dirtbikes).

Bear in mind back in the day, the head of the 4A-GE (compare this to the more traditional at the time 4K-C) was designed by Yamaha. Why? They are responsible for advancing technology to maximise power whilst maintaining a small capacity, often requires complexity and often shorter engine life. (irrelevant of the filters in this case)

In the case of my two stroke KTM obviously there are none Having said this, I don't want to 'dust' any of my engines.

I'd say you are right about the OEM zook filters (looked like paper, but I didn't look that close)

I'd say the maufacturers have it reasonably sussed out. I don't think I'm saying anything that you don't know though.

[droverdave]

Talk about making a mountain from a molehill.

Just chuck a filter in and be done with it, any filter is going to be better than no filter.

Speaking of the 4age, i bought one that had RUST in the bores from sitting around. Bit of oil down the cylinders, turned it over on my garage floor, stuck it in my corolla, fired it up, compression was 160 ish across all four after a few hours driving, and it went fine for 60,000kms untill i sold it. and i certainly didnt treat it very nicely for that time ether.

If it can be ok after that, then im sure using a non paper filter isnt going to cause catastrophic failure.

[craigtempo]

Guys I beleive that the youtube video guzumping pod filters is missing the point ..........

Pod filters deliver air faster to the engine making them more responsive or they breath in much better .much like extractors breath out better than standard exhaust..
If they dont add a few horses to the enginge output they certainly make they enginge rev more freely therfor u get slightly more performance from one .
I had a pod filter on a feroza I use to have and the diference between tge standard air filter and pod performance was chalk and cheese.

Its all about letting the engine breath ..

[Jezza86]

craigtempo wrote:

Guys I beleive that the youtube video guzumping pod filters is missing the point ..........
Pod filters deliver air faster to the engine making them more responsive or they breath in much better .much like extractors breath out better than standard exhaust..
If they dont add a few horses to the enginge output they certainly make they enginge rev more freely therfor u get slightly more performance from one .
I had a pod filter on a feroza I use to have and the diference between tge standard air filter and pod performance was chalk and cheese.
Its all about letting the engine breath ..

Unless your at wide open throttle, the biggest intake restriction is the throttle.

[Gwagensteve]

So if I fit two pod filters will I get boost? After all if one pod filter delivers air faster to the motor, then two must deliver so much air so fast it would be like having a hektik turbo! (Just to be clear, a filter doesn't deliver air, it's drawn by the motor. If the air flows through the pod faster, that's an indication of reduced filtration effectiveness. The goal should be to have the air moving through the filter as slowly as possible.

Are you sure it's the pod filter improving throttle response, or removing restrictive pipe work? And are you happy to reduce filter efficiency in order to improve throttle response? Wouldn't a better solution be a larger filter with increased piping diameter? Then you're not trading off filtration efficiency for flow.