[Chairman]

Is it possible to connect a megasquirt or a aftermarket ecu to a vitara ? I'm wanting to tune my engine get some more gain's.

[fordem]

A megasquirt is a "do-it-yourself" project, which like most after-market ECUs, has to be wired and programmed to suit the engine/vehicle - the systems are designed with the flexibility and the intent to be useable with any engine, so the question is not "is it possible" - but - can you do it, or can you find/pay someone who can - if you're lucky, you may be able to find an aftermarket ECU where someone else has done the majority of the work, but for a Suzuki I have my doubts.

If the sensors on the engine don't/can't interface with the ECU of your choice it's up to you to find a replacement that does, or fabricate something - like adding a 60 tooth wheel to the crank pulley to trigger the crank/cam timing, or as one person did with a a megasquirt, modifying the distributor wheel and writing software code to make it work - the aftermarket ECUs will have a tech support team who can recommend and even supply suitable sensors, but in the end it will be up to you, or your mechanic to mount those sensors and find a solution.

Your signature indicates you have a V6, and you're asking about a Vitara, so assuming a V6 Vitara, which has distributorless ignition - you might have to purchase a separate ignition system or you might be able to make the ECU drive the existing Suzuki coils.

It's going to be a challenge any way you look at it and tuning the system is going to take hours with an experienced dyno operator or months if you don't have access to a dyno - this is not going to be a bolt on project.

[mnemonix]

Possible yes. For an experienced installer on a dyno, expect no change from $2k or thereabouts. You may make minor improvements in power at the cost of fuel economy.

to DIY install and self tune on the road, you'll take days-weeks and will most likely make less power/torque at the risk of killing an engine. It's not a job for the inexperienced.

[Rhinoman]

Megasquirt is not legal for road use in most countries and it lacks many of the features required to qualify an ECU for road use. Its a compromise that makes it easier to build and keeps the costs down. There are much better ECUs out there, non of which will be cheap by the time they have been tuned, most dynos can only tune at full load so you can't expect to maintain stock drivability.
The gains will be minimal, changing the ECU is only really required if you have tuned the engine to a point where the ECU can no long maintain correct fuelling. The V6 engine is a MAF based system which is quite tolerant to all but quite radical changes.

[droverdave]

Start reading.

http://www.megamanual.com/index.html

[Blueberry]

Rhinoman wrote:

Megasquirt is not legal for road use in most countries and it lacks many of the features required to qualify an ECU for road use. Its a compromise that makes it easier to build and keeps the costs down. There are much better ECUs out there, non of which will be cheap by the time they have been tuned, most dynos can only tune at full load so you can't expect to maintain stock drivability.
The gains will be minimal, changing the ECU is only really required if you have tuned the engine to a point where the ECU can no long maintain correct fuelling. The V6 engine is a MAF based system which is quite tolerant to all but quite radical changes.

That's not really true, the only reason an ecu would be illegal is if it gets rid of emissions controls, a megasquirt is more than capable of running these and can easily meet emission standards. Also the point of a dyno is that you can run it at any load point at any rpm, they really are the best way to get a nice, smooth and drive able tune.

As far as features go it can basically be optioned to do anything, I can't really think of anything it can't do.

Re reading that I sound like a dick, but I so far have enjoyed working with these things, geat ecu's!

[Gwagensteve]

I'm sure a megasquirt can be programmed to run any emissions equipment, but it would be the responsibility of the owner to prove that with an ADR emissions test, which is very costly.

Steve.

[losfer]

with aftermarket ecus you can either have a conservative tune that passes emissions tests , or a tune that makes decent power , you cant have both ...

[Blueberry]

Probably should have been a little more detailed in my response, but you are right losfer, power does come at that price.

As far as I know (in Queensland at least) you would only be required to pass a test if you were pulled over and subjected to a roadside test, which unless you fail would not be at your cost I would have thought? Either way I've yet to hear of anyone actually having to do this?

[Rhinoman]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I'm sure a megasquirt can be programmed to run any emissions equipment, but it would be the responsibility of the owner to prove that with an ADR emissions test, which is very costly.
Steve.

In most markets an ECU used on the road must be type approved and that means passing a raft of EMC, vibration and shock tests, a Megasquirt could not pass those tests.

[droverdave]

Rhinoman wrote:

In most markets an ECU used on the road must be type approved and that means passing a raft of EMC, vibration and shock tests, a Megasquirt could not pass those tests.

Got any proof and Why not?

Reality is most things are illegal anyway if the cop is nasty enough. So long as your car runs well, doesnt blow fuel out the exhuast, the wiring looks oem, and the ecu isnt sitting in your passenger foot well, the chances of you getting caught and tested with it are minor.

But yes, technically its not legal.

[henno]

I was pulled over by QLD Transport twice in my street/strip dirty-ass V8. This thing has a cam lumpier than Kim Kardashian's arse and with enough duration and lift to ensure that at idle it is about as efficient as an oil tanker. Both times my emmisions at idle were about 100 times what they should have been for a car of that age (it's rather fuelly at idle to say the least and the catalytic converters went to the scrap metal gods) and in both cases they told me my car clearly needed a tune: "You can hear it's not running very well just by listening to it." (insert picture of me holding back sheepish grin)

A little bit of "Oh no, really? I should really get that looked at." and in both instances I was allowed to go about my day with a friendly smile and a wave.

Lesson one: don't act like a dick and don't drive like a dick and generally you'll be fine.

(Oh, and yes megasquirt is technically illegal, but so are a lot of modifications... technically.)

[JrZook]

droverdave wrote:

Rhinoman wrote:

In most markets an ECU used on the road must be type approved and that means passing a raft of EMC, vibration and shock tests, a Megasquirt could not pass those tests.

Got any proof and Why not?

Lol have you compared the megasquirt layout to an OEM ECU? Megasquirt, however has shown to work on various engine/vehicle configurations and is rather cheap.

[droverdave]

Excuse my ignorance, but how does the layout of the megasquirt board help with vibration and shock tests?

And what is the definition of a EMC, shock and vibration test? and how do you pass?

I've seen the inside of both, the OEMS do have a more robust case, but you can put a megasquirt in a robust case as well.

[chris77]

Rhinoman wrote:

Megasquirt is not legal for road use in most countries and it lacks many of the features required to qualify an ECU for road use. Its a compromise that makes it easier to build and keeps the costs down. There are much better ECUs out there, non of which will be cheap by the time they have been tuned, most dynos can only tune at full load so you can't expect to maintain stock drivability.

Gee better go and tell my mate that just finished his cobra replica from cratch that is now road legal in NZ

Its legal in New Zealand . There would be no difference between teh test required for a megasquirt and any other aftermarket ecu in Aussie I would expect . Be interesting to post that comment on the MS forums and just see what countrys they are not allowed in ....

Rhinoman wrote:

The gains will be minimal, changing the ECU is only really required if you have tuned the engine to a point where the ECU can no long maintain correct fuelling. The V6 engine is a MAF based system which is quite tolerant to all but quite radical changes.

I agree with you here thou , i doubt it will improve unless he has done some other modifications to the engine . However when I installed a basin , ie fuel only , into my range rover I was easily exceeding factory fuel economy before it was tuned completely . However I did not verify the factory equipment was running perfectly before it came out .

Chris

[tanshi]

im pretty sure that any aftermarket ecu in AUS is illegal due to emmissions controls on maps etc.

[JrZook]

droverdave wrote:

Excuse my ignorance, but how does the layout of the megasquirt board help with vibration and shock tests?

And what is the definition of a EMC, shock and vibration test? and how do you pass?

I've seen the inside of both, the OEMS do have a more robust case, but you can put a megasquirt in a robust case as well.

rhinoman will have a lot better explanation then anyone on here about these tests as he actually designs ECU for commercial purposes which are required to pass these tests.

I can only comment on the comparison between the Megasquirt layout and an OEM ECUs in terms of EMC from what I've seen and played with. The Megasquirt PCB layout is a bit of a mess! The tracks and functional component groups are all over the place that have known to cause EMC issues within itself! EMC tests are implemented to show that a product is upto a standard in which it will not interfere with other products, by emission of electomagnetic interference (EMI), nor become unstable by the absorption of radiated EMI. Megasquirt has known issues with interference causing spurious triggering effects. For example, the triggering circuits alone are very basic and are quite susceptible to external EMI just from the running engine in which it was just designed to do. Now if you place it in an anechoic RF room and bombard the thing with EMI as part of EMC testing I'd be pretty confident that it would fail under the standards that OEM systems are required to uphold. Who knows what EMI the megasquirt emits and what it could possibly affect. I believe the testing takes place to ensure systems remain compatible with each other and not cause any unwanted effects.

chris77 if you read again what rhinoman said he did say illegal in "most" countries + im also sure that there are a few loop holes or exemptions for a kit build or individually constructed vehicles. Also if you commented on the MS forums they would most likely direct you the the FAQ in which it states:

Q.Are MegaSquirt® EFI controller emission exempt in the U.S.A. or other locations?

A. No. MegaSquirt® EFI controllers DO NOT have exemption orders, and thus are NOT emissions legal for sale or use on any on-road pollution controlled vehicles in the U.S.A. or Canada. Competition vehicles that are never operated on public roads may be able to use MegaSquirt® EFI controllers, and some older 'non-emissions' on-road vehicles might be able to use MegaSquirt® EFI controllers as well. For other regions, please check your local regulations to see if a MegaSquirt® EFI controller is legal for your application.

I believe in Australia for vehicles from 1985 to 2006?? the appropriate ruling for emissions (in which after market ECUs would have to pass) is ADR27A/B/C. It involves dyno testing and gas concentration analysis for CO, HC and NOx. So it is quite possible for an aftermarket ECU to pass these tests but I'd hate to see how much they slug you for the analysis

What EFI system was your rover running? The old flapper type? 14CUX?

[droverdave]

That was an interesting read, thanks for that.

I guess thats why a megasquirt cost $300, and a motec cost $4000.

[Gwagensteve]

In the early 2000's in Vic, ADR emissions testing started at $3.5k. It's not a single cost either- if it fails, you keep paying until it passes.

A dodge viper had been back something like eight times.

Steve.

[Rhinoman]

droverdave wrote:

Rhinoman wrote:

In most markets an ECU used on the road must be type approved and that means passing a raft of EMC, vibration and shock tests, a Megasquirt could not pass those tests.

Got any proof and Why not?

Ok first off let me explain that my day job is designing ECUs for OEMS so I'm quite familiar with OEM design, requirements and testing.
Megasquirt is a DIY project, to make it easier to assemble, code and to understand they have left off a bunch of features that are required by an OEM ECU, that's fair enough they sell it as an experimental ECU and make it quite clear that its not likely to be road legal.

To qualify an ECU you need to qualify the build process as well, MS is a DIY build, no one can guarantee anything built by someone else. MS won't pass EMC for a number of reasons, the PCB layout isn't great,on the earlier versions its quite poor. MS doesn't have an RF ground plane which means it has no chance of passing susceptibility tests, no surprise its well known to have noise issues, and it will also have problems with radiated noise. For the same reason it also has no chance of passing ESD tests. You may have a chance with reverse battery and load dump on the later versions, from what I recall they improved the power supply components.
In my opinion, without testing, the connectors used are not capable of withstanding shock and vibration tests no matter how well they are assembled. I've also seen MS builds with leads soldered directly onto transistors legs - the legs would snap off during vibration.
On a life time test where the ECU is repeatedly heat cycled any hand assembled unit is likely to fail.
MS doesn't have a proper watchdog or limp mode and has no failsafe modes, that leaves the possibility of an unexpected vehicle stop which is considered highly dangerous.
Last time I looked MS had no back-up power supply so it doesn't remember learned settings from the O2 sensor which will give problems passing emissions.

I could go on for pages but its a bit pointless. MS is very good for what it is but its not OEM quality nor is it claimed to be. Its unlikely that you will ever get a cheap aftermarket ECU to be road legal, we just had a new ECU go 'live' on a new vehicle and I think we used something like 200 ECUs for the qualification process.

[Rhinoman]

JrZook wrote:

chris77 if you read again what rhinoman said he did say illegal in "most" countries

The OEM ECUs that I work on are designed to meet all standards worldwide. I'm not familiar with individual countries but ADR rules will be based on the ISO standards. If anyone has a link to the specific Aus requirements then I'll have a look but they may well be spread across a number of ADRs covering emissions and general vehicle standards.