[henno]

Yep, I've searched.
Yep, I found some stuff.
Yep, I still have a few questions.

Aside from getting a front bar, what is the recommended (if any) option for a usable front recovery point on a GV?

So far the simplest idea I have seen is this sort of arrangement, where the tie down loop is braced against the chassis and used as a mount from there:

Built4thrashing wrote:

This is the current aftermarket recovery point.




The front bar bolts on using a plate with nuts welded to it that slides into the chasis and is bolted on using the existing holes on the inside of the chasis. It is also bolted on using the top hole in the chasis. You can also make up a bar that picks up the 2 bolts under the cross member and is bent up to attach to the plate in side the chasis. (similar to the ones in the pic that fix to the winch plate.)

There are not alot of options . You just need to be creative in your thinking or dont get stuck.

fordem wrote:

Zook_Fan wrote:

Wow. I wouldn't be using that for recovery any more. Is the bullbar airbag compliant or anything? Because this is where I'd be looking to mount the recovery point:

That recovery point was incorrectly mounted - the triangular fin is designed to act as a gusset and bear against the chassis rail as shown below



There has been some discussion as to whether the actual recovery point should face forward but I believe the jury is still out on that.

I'm heading away to Straddie for a week in the new year and it has got me thinking about how I could pull or be pulled from the front if caught on a track where the option of using the rear towbar and going backwards isn't an option? I obviously don't want to go stupid with over-the-top mods just to snatch in sand, but everything on the front looks very... flimsy.

Ideas?

[kirstyandgrace]

Quote:

You just need to be creative in your thinking or dont get stuck.

I know, not really helpful. Don't know the cars.

However,

Have suitable tyre pressures will see you pretty right on the sand.

Failing that, liberal use of your long handled shovel is a good un-fucker.

I would rather dig in sand than have a snatch strap recovery any day.

The picture fordem posted looks ok ?

[Mike_B]

On my Vit that hoop would serve as a recovery point, there are also separate, weaker tie down points. Having said that I did think the hoop as shown in the photos above could also be beefed up with another section of round bar bent to similar shape, mounted directly above or below the existing loop and welded to the chassis rail as well. Making that bracket in pics above requires welding anyway by the look of it, an additional hoop probably takes about as much effort/time, and could potentially be stronger?

[magnat]

I had to go outside of the box.. I had an Engineering company test and build two new points.. I have to use a Bridle strap but the Recovery points come off the sub frame..



The Hooks are attached to the subframe with 10mm Thick plate steel, High Tensile bolts and fitted in pairs.. It has to be in pairs as the shock load will be too great for a single point..

[Red89]

How many bolts hold it to the subframe ?

[Built4thrashing]

Red89 wrote:

How many bolts hold it to the subframe ?

There are 2 M12x125 thread Grade 8.8 bolts either side.
My winch bar connects to these so im not just pulling on the ends of the chassis.

[henno]

magnat wrote:

I had to go outside of the box.. I had an Engineering company test and build two new points.. I have to use a Bridle strap but the Recovery points come off the sub frame..



The Hooks are attached to the subframe with 10mm Thick plate steel, High Tensile bolts and fitted in pairs.. It has to be in pairs as the shock load will be too great for a single point..

I don't mind this idea. I might ponder that a little bit further actually.

And yes, I understand that planning to not get stuck is the best option but I am travelling with a few rookies in a stock as a rock Triton and an Amarok so it might be a case of me having to pull them out

Already have a shovel and not afraid to dig; moreso just planning a few things and confirmed what I already knew: front recovery options on GV's are few and far between.

[alien]

pulling someone out still should require as much prep as them trying to drive out - you should be digging / track building etc as if they're going to drive out, then giving them a gentle tug to get the momentum started - this places as little strain on both vehicles as possible and is much safer than trying to rip free a 2 tonne vehicle that's up to its diffs in sand.

[Chop]

Maxtrax!

[henno]

alien wrote:

pulling someone out still should require as much prep as them trying to drive out - you should be digging / track building etc as if they're going to drive out, then giving them a gentle tug to get the momentum started - this places as little strain on both vehicles as possible and is much safer than trying to rip free a 2 tonne vehicle that's up to its diffs in sand.

I know this. This thread wasn't meant to be a "teach me how to drive offroad" question nor am I looking for pointers on how to prep for a recovery. I am aware that in the order of recoveries that a snatch is last resort. My question wasn't about these other resorts so "don't get stuck" and "dig instead" don't really answer the question.

I have a dry-chem fire extinguisher in the car also; I guess that's not needed either so long as I just make sure I don't ever catch fire? I'm simply waxing lyrical about the worst possible situation here, so let's not digress into a discussion on how not to get stuck in the first place or what's the best option for recovery - I already know these things - I am just curious as to how others have solved the complete lack of front recovery points on a GV.

Lots of love, henno.

[droverdave]

The one with the bracket thing on the hoop looks good. Just get one of them?

I went to stradbroke the other month, you really don't have much to worry about, all the places you are allowed to drive are quite easy.

[henno]

droverdave wrote:

The one with the bracket thing on the hoop looks good. Just get one of them?

Yeah, no idea where to source them though.

droverdave wrote:

I went to stradbroke the other month, you really don't have much to worry about, all the places you are allowed to drive are quite easy.

My family owns property there (and has for over fifty years) so I've driven just about everywhere there is to drive at straddie, and I would agree. Mentioning straddie in 4 weeks was more for a reference of timeline rather than difficulty.

[magnat]

That Factory one from ECB acts more like a can opener then anything else...
As the vehicle is pulled forward, It acts more like a Lever and forces the triangle upwards into the chassis rails and what happened with mine is it actually slide past the chassis rails and caused the actual
factory hoop to bend.. which when the hook was straightend back out caused it to snap... so I had to look for an Alternative to the stock hoop...

[fordem]

The problem I have with this ^^^ opinion is that it seems to be based on personal experience with what may have been an improperly installed product.

magnat wrote:

Not my Pic... but its the same situation

If, as you claim it's the same situation, then there's no way it can act like a can opener, the force is in the wrong direction, and the reason it bent the hook is because it was improperly installed - now - if it was properly installed and bent upwards piercing the rail, then the statement would be justifiable.

And then there's this ...

magnat wrote:

Yep...

Sorry about the size.. its the best one I have..

Its bent.. the tow loop on the vehicle is OK..

Where you tell us the recovery point bent but the loop on the vehicle is OK - but now you're telling a different story.

[royce]

henno wrote:

magnat wrote:

I had to go outside of the box.. I had an Engineering company test and build two new points.. I have to use a Bridle strap but the Recovery points come off the sub frame..



The Hooks are attached to the subframe with 10mm Thick plate steel, High Tensile bolts and fitted in pairs.. It has to be in pairs as the shock load will be too great for a single point..

I don't mind this idea. I might ponder that a little bit further actually.

And yes, I understand that planning to not get stuck is the best option but I am travelling with a few rookies in a stock as a rock Triton and an Amarok so it might be a case of me having to pull them out

Already have a shovel and not afraid to dig; moreso just planning a few things and confirmed what I already knew: front recovery options on GV's are few and far between.

If one of the bolts holding the hook to the bracket also attaches to the vehicle somewhere it might be ok, but if its a single bolt down near the subframe, somebody is going to get hurt, all the load will bend that bolt, bolts don't like bending, not to mention even at 8.8 they still wont take 50% of a snatch load.

If you can access the loop (IE no bar in the way) just use it, its why its there and being smart about recovery will see it last forever.

[Abraxix]

ar eyou refering to the factory loop at the front?

my old X90 that's all i ever used at the front and i was snatched off the factory loop when stuf - i admit the car's maybe what? all of 1 tonne, so all it ever needed was a gentle pull or a few mates rocking the thing or attempting ot pick it up

my old Jeep and i were skull dragged around 10 metres by the front factory loop in the Jeeps similar kind fo thing on the Zooks and the Jeep weighs what? 2+Tons..

if anything happens i'll be using the factory loops and maybe take it to some one to welt the full length of the loop to the chasis, as they for some reason only come welded 1 side or not all the way!!!

[droverdave]

what is considered a snatch load? (I know there is a great debate on this somewhere)

If that bolt is done up tight, then its not in bending, its in tension and when you snatch off it, its in shear.

Bolts take an enormous amount of load in shear, especially the unthreaded section (if there is one). Also in the above the point is to do the bolts up tight so that the force is resolved though friction between the hook and the steel plate. The bolts are just in tension (to create this friction between the surfaces), which is where they are very strong also.

[magnat]

royce wrote:

henno wrote:

magnat wrote:

I had to go outside of the box.. I had an Engineering company test and build two new points.. I have to use a Bridle strap but the Recovery points come off the sub frame..



The Hooks are attached to the subframe with 10mm Thick plate steel, High Tensile bolts and fitted in pairs.. It has to be in pairs as the shock load will be too great for a single point..

I don't mind this idea. I might ponder that a little bit further actually.

And yes, I understand that planning to not get stuck is the best option but I am travelling with a few rookies in a stock as a rock Triton and an Amarok so it might be a case of me having to pull them out

Already have a shovel and not afraid to dig; moreso just planning a few things and confirmed what I already knew: front recovery options on GV's are few and far between.

If one of the bolts holding the hook to the bracket also attaches to the vehicle somewhere it might be ok, but if its a single bolt down near the subframe, somebody is going to get hurt, all the load will bend that bolt, bolts don't like bending, not to mention even at 8.8 they still wont take 50% of a snatch load.

If you can access the loop (IE no bar in the way) just use it, its why its there and being smart about recovery will see it last forever.

Two Bolts hold it to the vehicle not one.. Then two bolts hold the hook in place..

[zoukshin]

fordem wrote:

The problem I have with this ^^^ opinion is that it seems to be based on personal experience with what may have been an improperly installed product.

magnat wrote:

Not my Pic... but its the same situation

If, as you claim it's the same situation, then there's no way it can act like a can opener, the force is in the wrong direction, and the reason it bent the hook is because it was improperly installed - now - if it was properly installed and bent upwards piercing the rail, then the statement would be justifiable.

And then there's this ...

magnat wrote:

Yep...

Sorry about the size.. its the best one I have..

Its bent.. the tow loop on the vehicle is OK..

Where you tell us the recovery point bent but the loop on the vehicle is OK - but now you're telling a different story.

Yeah so this bent recovery point is mine. For what it's worth, HELL YES it's been improperly installed (not by me) , and it also still works.
Also, I put that up for discussion a while back and it was generally admitted that, when installed properly, it does NOT act as a can opener (although it sure does look like one).
It's a ECB standard design that comes with their GV 98-05 Alloy bar, and is made to reach below the bar. A number of us on this forum use it.

It's been said before as well, but I put my vote for maxtraxx and digging over snatching any day. Can always use a combination of the two (dig+maxtraxx AND snatch) in dire situations.

[kirstyandgrace]

Quote:

And yes, I understand that planning to not get stuck is the best option but I am travelling with a few rookies in a stock as a rock Triton and an Amarok so it might be a case of me having to pull them out

Going by that statement, maybe you should be asking about rear recovery points

As for your original question, if your car has a winch bar option, its mounting point
is where you mount your recovery hook (or whatever)

ARB and the like sell rated recovery stuff, just find one that fits.

Or am I over simplifying here ?

[Built4thrashing]

kirstyandgrace wrote:

Quote:

And yes, I understand that planning to not get stuck is the best option but I am travelling with a few rookies in a stock as a rock Triton and an Amarok so it might be a case of me having to pull them out

Going by that statement, maybe you should be asking about rear recovery points

As for your original question, if your car has a winch bar option, its mounting point
is where you mount your recovery hook (or whatever)

ARB and the like sell rated recovery stuff, just find one that fits.
Or am I over simplifying here ?

That's the problem..... There is almost nowhere to fit an off the shelf recovery point without adding extra brackets.


Winch bars tend to just bolt onto the ends of the chassis and in my opinion that's not enough. Ive run extra bracing from the winch plate to under the front cross member to spread the weight....

[magnat]

Oh and After breaking my ECB Extended tie down point I was informed it was NOT rated for Recovery anyway.

Its to be used when you are getting pulled up onto the back of a Tilt tray.. nothing more..

To clear up what happened with my Hoop..
It failed under snatch.... From a Short Wheel base Vitara..
Went to get the Hook straightened out and sorted so at least it could be used and the local smash repair mob broke the factory hoop trying to straighten it back out..

I was assured that the next time I used it, it would be fine... but no... they had welded it after breaking it... and that weld let go and that ended the use of the factory hoop.
So I had NO option but to get something made up to be used for Recoveries.
So I went to a local Engineering firm who weld and make things for Cranes and Mining Equipment and they told me never to use that factory hook again..
So they designed and made two replacement recovery hooks.. Which in order to be used safely must use a bridle strap to equalise the load over two points and not one..

So whilst the end result is far from perfect.. It at least means that if I get stuck again... Which is going to happen.. I can get recovered safely as NOTHING is welded to the vehicle.
10mm thick steel and High Tensile bolts.. are used to make sure that it is as safe as it can be..

[zoukshin]

magnat wrote:

Oh and After breaking my ECB Extended tie down point I was informed it was NOT rated for Recovery anyway.

Its to be used when you are getting pulled up onto the back of a Tilt tray.. nothing more..

Who told you that ?
Anyone here from ECB or with inside contacts can comment on this ?

I don't see any point in having a recovery point that can't be used as such.

[Sco-tie]

And if it is a recovery point then why don't they sell them separately? They would easily sell heaps if they did. I'm sure it's fine to use with a snatch as the design is bracing itself but it probably hasn't been engineered for such use and hence for liability they can't market it as such

[magnat]

All the ECB attachment does is extend the stock hoop down below the bar.. its not rated for recovery..

[magnat]

Excuse the Epic MS Paint Skills but its all I have..
To explain the can opener effect its pretty easy..
In a Snatch forces are applied in the direction of the Red Arrow.. Its not a straight a head force as usually the stranded vehicle is at a lower point then the recovery vehicle..
So the motion is more up and forward..
The Motion is transferred in direction of the Yellow Arrow which is Upwards..
IF at some point in the recovery the Vehicle with traction is pulled either to the left or the right as is often the case in a mud recovery, the the Force can have a sideways pulling effect.. Which can cause the top triangle bit to twist and slide past the Chassis rails and bend the factory hoop.. Which is what happened in my case... a Little sideways force underload caused the top section to slide down past the chassis rails and bent the factory hoop..

When said hoop was Re-straightened.. It snapped... So it was welded.. which as we all know is a STUPID thing to do if not done properly..
So since my factory hoop was now Completely useless the new Dual Rated Recovery hooks are mounted to the only other area that can be bolted to.. The sub frame..
Its not perfect... but its better then trying to do a deadly and stupid thing of using the factory hoop which could let go if you sneezed on it..

[fordem]

Two questions ...

1 - How would an UPward motion, either in the direction of the red or the yellow arrows, cause the top section to slide DOWN?
2 - What makes that a "can opener" effect?

[Abraxix]

i don't think it's down, it's "into" the chassis, making it the Can Opener effect the triangle plate acts like a blade and the chassis acts liek the tin in a can.

as the forward motion of the hook, is applied the backward motion of the triangle is applied to the chassis tube!

at least that's how i am looking at it it acts like a seasaw effect??? to over come that i'd imagine the only way aroudn it woudl be to weld more plate onto the triangle peice maing it "a flat" panel that applies all the force to the chassis tube not just a blade type surface??

[magnat]

Bang on Abraxix... The triangle part needs to be wider...

Now as to it sliding down past the rails there is like 5mm between it and the edge.... Its not dead centre as you would imagine.. So a Slight sideways jerk under load and it will slide past the chassis rail and cuts into it..

[droverdave]

Why dont you just cut the triagle bit back a bit, and weld on a bit of flat bar so the flat bar sits against the car, not that sharp corner?

That bit of triagle looks like a bit of offcut anyway...