[3cyl]

When we used to go down there, ('06, 07 and 08) the tracks used to have something to disadvantage both smaller and bigger cars. Usually at the end of the track, if you get that far there's a huge boulder of some sort to drive over... or you can try your luck on the bonus line Oh and the mud pit was deep, even for a Mogrover on 46s. I know the entrant "vehicles" have gotten smaller since then but I can't see any hope of success with a wheelbase less than 100"ish. Also you need to be able to "launch" over some obstacles, no can do in a 2stroke, unless a bigger one. I do think a compact LJ based car would go pretty well, Aaron and Kerrod Ward went pretty well last year didn't they?

[tanshi]

Aarons isnt what I would call compact. Its crazy long and wide still

[Parry]

If I have learnt one thing while building my zook for tt this year is.. Build a buggy with rivet on panels, everything would have been so much easier to fit etc, I don't even know if mine complys after this year as I was lucky to get in with an exo this year, build small & compact, if you build a rig that's strong and fun to drive it won't matter how well you do, it's all about having fun in the end!

[canberramav]

Here my opinion for what its worth.

Ive driven the Tough Truck tracks in my sierra, specs were:
106 wheel base
turbo 1.6
37 stickies
60 series diffs with 4.88's
6.5 transfer and auto box

I struggled on most of the tracks. I found i could get through them but without any elegance if that makes sense. Biggest issue was diffing out. On nearly all the tracks i had to choose a high line to get the diffs through. The undercut ledges placed heaps of stress on all driveline parts, It seemed the driveline was always torqueing up because my tyres were overshadowed by the big rocks. There always seemed to be big holes on tight turns and I was always tackling them at full steering lock.

Overall concensus was I was pushing the zook beyond its limits. I didnt enjoy the driving as much as I should of. Im entered this year in the proclaimer with 54 inch tyres so I guess I will be able to comment on the opposite perspective soon.

The next TT social I went to was in my buggy. Specs are:
112 wheelbase
BB chev
42 inch stickies
Dana 60/70 diffs
Atlas and auto

The first day of driving the tracks I cant even remember using reverse. I did most of the tracks first go. Even the waterfall I just about idled up.The driving was enjoyable and relaxing. The buggy barely bottomed out and was unstressed. Before you think 'yea but its a buggy' its as much buggy as 3/4 of the competitors.
In my opinion 40 to 43 inch tyres are a must to be highly competitive. They suit this particular terrain well. Not to big as to lose stability, turning circle and reliabilty. Big enough to keep your diffs up in the air and to get you through the holes and ledges.

People say ' yea a small 4cyl will turn 42's with the right gearing' this is true. The thing is a decent v6 or v8 will do it much easier with more control.. And its makes a big diffence.
To give a lousy example I would compare it to driving on the highway. Its tiring having a little 4 banger screaming its tits off. Its still doing the speed limit but its tiring. The v8 is lazy and will do the same just off idle.
After having the 4cyl and v8 I would go the V8 again anyday.

Best combo i think is:
Pretty much Barzook with a bigger motor -
Or the diahatsu - http://tufftruck.com.au/entrants/TTC201 ... CK-MULISHA

[Parry]

I seen you at the social in the buggy, did everything with ease & sounded good to! Have a few pics I haven't uploaded yet..

[canberramav]

Sweet as!!

Chuck them on

[31zook]

Its a rich kids event. 37s are the smallest you would want to run, and 40s are becoming the norm.

Sure its good to say nimble is better, but you do need to out power and out tyre the course.

I know we a like to out-wheel GQs on 38s but at some point their big enough to drive that step/ledge/hole, and TT as an event is just giant steps/ledges/holes.

Would come and watch something different tho.

PS: Ive only ever watched and helped build one. So this is all observations. As you were.

[canberramav]

31zook wrote:

Its a rich kids event. 37s are the smallest you would want to run, and 40s are becoming the norm.

Sure its good to say nimble is better, but you do need to out power and out tyre the course.

I know we a like to out-wheel GQs on 38s but at some point their big enough to drive that step/ledge/hole, and TT as an event is just giant steps/ledges/holes.

Would come and watch something different tho.

PS: Ive only ever watched and helped build one. So this is all observations. As you were.

Your spot on.

[tanshi]

You guys make me laugh. Big car or small car. Wheeling is supposed to be hard. Tiring. Its why I do it. If it was relaxing I wouldnt bother.

[Mattmorgo]

Red89 wrote:

My theoretical build would be this which isnt necessarily small but is by TT standards :

105 WB
SWB Sierra body
Jimny 1.3 or Vit efi1.6 and auto
Custom diff housings for max clearance solid axle Lux width with Lux internals
Full hydro because its easier to package the shocks without a steering box.
5.14 TC and 5.29 Diff
4 link F + R
14 inch Air shocks
Sticky 37's

The only thing I may add would be queer steer

After talking to you last week tanshi, I sat down with criddy one arvo trying to plan my tt build. Kinda what is above but if I can source a j20 motor then that will be the motor. Otherwise I pretty well have everything here available. Will be a Sierra chassis and tub (essentially floor and firewall).
Hydro assist over full hydro as I wanna try this speedy shit as well and full hydro is shit you have no steering response and feel IMO
And coilovers/bumps

But we've also decided on doing finke so that's taking priority at this stage build/prep wise. Ideally next time I'm in brisbane we will be bending some tube, I'll sing out when and come up and have some input please.

[tanshi]

Sounds good matty

[3cyl]

tanshi wrote:

You guys make me laugh. Big car or small car. Wheeling is supposed to be hard. Tiring. Its why I do it. If it was relaxing I wouldnt bother.

It's on pretty soon isn't it? You should go down and check it out, tracks really are big. I've always been pro small car but those ledges and boulders are big car territory... well compared to our rigs. Also the tracks have evolved to be much harder over the years, I think in the first one we might have actually driven some tracks in our LJs. These days the key seems to be to build a buggy that barely complies with the rules. Did see some young fellas in a red Sierra on 35s with P plates do well on hilux diffs in '06 and a smallish Vitara in '08 came 2nd or something but local knowledge and outstanding driving had a lot to do with that.

[Mattmorgo]

Spoke plenty with the idea of 35's vit diffs, came to a conclusion locally it would be fine but would struggle in a few areas of tt. Plus I have lux diffs already that are airlocked

I think this aus 4 shit you could be really competitive in a small fast car but that's a whole nother thread in itself.

[tanshi]

Im raceing the jeep that weekend other wise I would have gone to have a look

[nick_bj40]

For power to weight on the engine side of things would a turbo v6 like a Nissan vq30tt be an option? all alloy nearly bullet proof plenty of hp for the job. I realise the wiring can be a bit drastic and parts aren't at your finger tips but they come strong reliable auto and from what I can remember a great power curve with a lot if potential to up the ponneys if desired

I only suggest this because I believe in low cog and a low overall weight is a great advantage

One thing I am yet to see is a serious weight conscious small to med sized rig.. And not just chucking on some alloy control arms i mean cromo housings and alloy everythingas much and as frequent as possible.

When I think of buggies the most successful (or at least most copeditive) buggies are small in size have a small light weight engine (usually with a turbo to up the power) and do well even some of the rigs already mentioned already in this discussion are comparable to similar specs to this

[pezz]

on the two stroke engine talk....
i have no idea what the power curve and torque curve is like,
but would a see doo or snow mobile engine suit?

just throwing it out there

[3cyl]

Bandaged Bear was a nice light Sierra based rig, lots of ally bits, portals etc.

[pezz]

3cyl wrote:

Bandaged Bear was a nice light Sierra based rig, lots of ally bits, portals etc.

i remember the nice alloy portal housing part going snap on mini weriba
but glenn dobbin, being the gentleman he was,
drove back to sydney,machined up a new one and had it going again the next day for them

was a cool rig..
where is it now? still competing?

[canberramav]

Isn't Bandaged Bear now Barzook?

[Parry]

Yeah sure is, guy out dubbu way owns it

[Gwagensteve]

With the exception of the mudless mud run, IMHO there isn't anywhere on the TT course where power to weight is an issue. Sure, a rorty v8 is cool for impressing the bogans, but by that stage you've normally already given up any chance of a clean run. Dave camp won last year in a heavy car with a rover v8 that probably makes less power than a decent commodore v6. He also did it on almost bald krawlers.

Big cars and big power are cool but have very little to do with success at TT from what I've seen.

[Gwagensteve]

I'll add I'm not talking about overall weight- a lighter car is always an advantage over a heavier car, only power to weight. There are a couple of spots where a bump is required, but it's a tiny bump that any motor could provide.

[Zook_Fan]

nick_bj40 wrote:

One thing I am yet to see is a serious weight conscious small to med sized rig.. And not just chucking on some alloy control arms i mean cromo housings and alloy everythingas much and as frequent as possible.

When I think of buggies the most successful (or at least most copeditive) buggies are small in size have a small light weight engine (usually with a turbo to up the power) and do well even some of the rigs already mentioned already in this discussion are comparable to similar specs to this

Chromo housings don't give any weight savings. They are built with the same thicknesses as mild steel ones, they are just stronger. Sure you might get away without a truss because of it and you'd save weight there but most people truss the chromo anyway.

[Gwagensteve]

But that's just a missed opportunity. If a cromo axle housing is stronger at the same thickness as a mild steel housing, then that's a missed opportunity to loose weight in a lightweight/ low power car.

TT is full of cars that are built because their builders think they are cool, they're a copy of something that has done well, or it's something the builder thinks the crowd will like.

If you started with zero preconceptions and purely complied with the rules I don't think cars would look the way they do. What's the minimum weight? Why is anyone building a car that's heavier than the minimum weight?

Next is to analyse the terrain. The minimum torque required to do the job will mean the driveline will last and the running gear can be lighter.

I'm not telling people how to suck eggs but look at the cars that succeed at TT and there is no correlation to power, tyres or width. Dan (a1vit) has made it on the podium with 60 series diffs and a g16b- but he's a super smart driver who understands what is required to podium. He is never spectacular- he doesn't play to the crowd.

If you look at what does well it has nothing to do with tyre size, rear steer, or what's doing the springing. Simple, low, reliable cars driven by experienced drivers with lots of seat time win TT.

[tanshi]

Whats your take on nessessary length, width and tyre size steve?

[Gwagensteve]

I'll have a think about this over the weekend, but those numbers will depend a lot on weight distribution. Obviously if the weight is super low in the car then it can still have an acceptable cog whilst narrower.

I don't understand the obsession with portals for TT for example. There are no ruts and it's a high traction surface- you can place the diff centre wherever you want.

Steve.

[3cyl]

A lot of the boys in the moonbuggy style rock crawlers used to put the diffcentre at one extreme end of the housing and sort of not need the portals, just get that wheel up on a rock. Also they could push out of a diff out situation with the steering... or break something.

[tanshi]

yeah i have looked at the trail gear buggy.

The pumpkin is right up almost inside the wheel.

[Gwagensteve]

The thing is, on the TT course diff clearance is irrelevant except that the wider the car gets, the less line choice you have, so the more diff clearance required. So the giant car thing becomes self perpetuating.

The car I saw have the most problem with diff clearance was the proclaimer- running the biggest tyres. Not because it lacked diff clearance- because it has zero line choice.

Steve.

[31zook]

Build a TT steve