[SH Suzuki]

Hi,

I have a 2008 Grand Vitara diesel with 175000km. when cold I have trouble shifting gears from first to second. first is a little stiff at times. second when cold even after double declutching will not go in. third is good if allowed to align naturally. forth, fifth and reverse are fine. when the vehicle is warm there is no problems at all.

Suzuki are telling me that is a clutch issue and I need a full clutch kit.

I am unsure if it is clutch or Syncro's any constructive advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

[davevet]

i think its generally known that transmissions tend to be harder to shift when they are cold, my RA23 celica always has been... but chances are if the problem only occurs when the parts are cool..... heat wont affect the amount of leverage your clutch pedal has or how it operates much..... but it sure will effect the mesh of gears/syncro contact surfaces due to expansion of the metals, and the viscosity of the oil changing ... have you done an oil change lately?

[damagera]

i put auto transmission fluid in mine when i got it... changes easy as BUT now clunks when it goes into 2nd

[SH Suzuki]

Thanks Davevet, yes I agree with your points and have had the oil changed recently. when they have the clutch out I will get them to inspect the Syncro's. Being a more modern vehicle I would not expect problems changing gear unless there is worn components. Thoughts?

[Scrawny]

What oil was put in when it was changed?

Inspecting syncros will mean stripping the box down

[AckerDackerly]

Scrawn wrote:

What oil was put in when it was changed?

Inspecting syncros will mean stripping the box down

Indeed! A teardown of the case to reveal the gears will be necessary. And I'ma thinkin' that what the problem is - bad synchros.

One thing you CAN do that might diagnose the problem is to carefully drain the gearbox lubricant into a clean container so you can check it for fine yellow, green or copper-like metal sediment. It might look like you hit gold, but such is not the case...

Recent gear oil grades have been found to be harsh on older gearboxes - especially those with brass components.

Sychros in your typical Sierra/SJ413 box are made of brass, so I have to watch which GL grade I use. I think that Pre-GL4 is acceptable, but I would do a bit of searching on the Interwebs for gear oil grades and useages...

I originally discovered this problem whilst being the proud (but ever-broke) owner of a Styer-Puch Pinzgauer 710M...

I hope that this helps!

[Gwagensteve]

Sounds like the clutch to me.

Steve.

[SH Suzuki]

Steve would you elaborate?
Gear box fluid was replaced by Suzuki so will be as recommended by Suzuki.

Does any one know where I can get a repair/workshop or service manual for this vehicle Haynes do not seem to do them and all the on line ones do not cover this model JT05A

Some very differingg Ideas coming back here which only confirms by confusion as to which one it might be.

[Gwagensteve]

Not really. Just sounds like the clutch. Normally only one synchro will go and if you have 175k on the stock clutch it's likely getting very long in the tooth.

Steve.

[watermouse]

I stand to be corrected but would it only be hard to shift if the clutch is not fully disengaging? A worn clutch that slips will still fully disengage unless it is way out of adjustment. On the other hand if the clutch is so shot that it is disintegrating could be causing it to drag when disengaged. Is there thrust bearing noise or an audible difference with clutch in and out in while in neutral?

Cable or hydro clutch? (I would guess hydro for a late model GV)

I don't think it would be worn syncros either but more to do with them not shedding the new (possibly wrong) oil quickly enough to grip and sync.

Only guessing here but does Suzuki specify the same oil for the petrol and diesel gearboxes (jap vs euro)?
They may have made a mistake there with the diesel being the less common vehicle.

[fordem]

Like Steve I say clutch.

I'm not 100% certain on a 2008 (which I believe is a JB), but as far as I know the clutch operates like that on the SQ series GV which has a "self adjusting" hydraulic clutch - there is no adjustment, all that happens is that as the clutch linings, wear the piston in the slave cylinder moves further out - the end result is less travel on the slave for a full pedal stroke.

On an SQ series you end up with the engage/disengage point dropping closer to the floor as the linings wear until you reach a point where the pedal is all the way to the floor and the clutch does not disengage properly - the resulting clutch drag causes the symptoms - it's more apparent in the lower gears because in those gears the difference in rotational speed between the gear and the engagement hub is greater.

[watermouse]

well, there you go,

That is a really good technical explanation, fordem

[droverdave]

Re: fordem's post.

All sounds feasible, but how does it explain the fact that it all works fine once everything heats up? wouldn't there still be clutch drag when everything is hot?

My sierra 1.3 gearbox is the same (2nd gear is a bit harder to shift into when its cold), and i have noticed that it is worse the last 2 months since its been winter (ie much colder in the mornings). but once everything starts to warm up (even just 10mins of driving, where the engine isn't even at operating temp yet), it starts to get noticeable easier to change into second. Then after maybe 15-20mins, all gears are silky smooth. which sounds the same as the OP is suggesting.

My thoughts are on my gbox is that the gbox oil doesn't work so good when its cold, maybe even the wrong oil for the colder temp, once it heats up though, all good and nice and smooth. (the colder oil causing the synchos not to work properly? i dunno?)

[fordem]

There will still be clutch drag when it's hot - but - there will be less drag from the gear oil which has now warmed up - so the gears will spin easier.

What causes the problem is the difference in speed between the gear and the engagement hub, so the more drag on the gears (slowing things down), or the more drag from the clutch (speeding things up), the more work the synchros have to do.

[droverdave]

Ah yer that makes sense. Combination of cold oil and clutch drag causing higher differential speed.

I don't want to replace my clutch though :/

[bohuler]

Where are located?
The last JB model GV that came through my workshop had the hydraulic thrust bearing which basically doubled the price of the clutch.
There is good after market options available .
As Steve said, 175,000 on the clock is a bloody good innings for a clutch.

Dave

[bohuler]

Oh and due to some people's severe lack of understanding basic business practices (I need to make money...) I won't put any prices up but if you message me I can help with some workshop prices.
Dave