[jimmey]

So i had planned to put an I30 diesel into a sierra but it seems i've over stepped my mark.
financialy there was basically going to be no limit and time wise it was just a slow project.

EDIT: Ideally I'm going to do anything and everything i can to keep her roadworthy, but if in the end it just cant possibly be done she'll be a trailer job, probably even a tube buggy haha!
I wanna do this because I want a crdi sierra and really just because I can

Now i'm no mechanic and definitely not an expert 4wd modifier but I do have an understanding of it all and have done engine conversions in the past and I'm pretty good on the fabricating front.

so I'm basically gonna be asking a heap of questions which I was wondering if you guys could help me get an understanding.
it seems some people can get very frustrated at a lack of knowledge, I have no means to put off more then I know and am genuinely curious. plus what better place to get knowledge then the forum full of blokes that have been doing shit like this for decades.

any help would be awesome!

So first question: by putting the transverse motor and box in? could I theoretically just drop them in and hook them up to the diff (not thinking about ratios an what not) or does transverse also mean that it'll all run in reverse


P.s any mods can delete my last post about the hood scoop for the intercoolerer

[atari4x4]

what everyone is saying in that other thread is buy a hilux, if you want a diesel.

fit a J20a into you sierra if you want to keep it & spend the rest of your time/money on building it, rather than having a pile of parts that isn't going to work that ends up going to the scrap yard in 7 years time.

build goes something like this; J20a engine, RUF, Lockers, Transfer Gears, Virtual Lift, Cromo's, FF Rear diff, 33x10.5 tyres... then the cool little details, shaved pumpkins, barwork etc etc. this game has been played before more than once & doesn't include a square peg in a round hole.

[jdk81]

Where will the engine be mounted to clear diffs etc?
How long will the shafts be? How will they adapt to the diff?
How much of the firewall will be removed to package it?

Transaxle will work direct into diffs. Problem is perma low range and making it fit. Fine in a buggy/trail rig, not so in a road going car.

if you are that determined, go and start measuring the i30 all its bits etc.
youll need to do a lot of measuring and fiddling and adapting to make something work, and even if you proceed and do it, it could end up sucking ass

[jimmey]

jdk81 wrote:

Where will the engine be mounted to clear diffs etc?
How long will the shafts be? How will they adapt to the diff?
How much of the firewall will be removed to package it?

Transaxle will work direct into diffs. Problem is perma low range and making it fit. Fine in a buggy/trail rig, not so in a road going car.

if you are that determined, go and start measuring the i30 all its bits etc.
youll need to do a lot of measuring and fiddling and adapting to make something work, and even if you proceed and do it, it could end up sucking ass

Thanks jdk81.

i havnt actually got an real measurements from the i30 yet, i just want to make sure itll all work theoretically before i worry about where itll go!

All the driveline and shafts im assuming are going to have to be custom made

so if I dropped the motor and box in then box to transfer then to diff, the car should move correctly? (not worrying about ratios and what not yet)??

[Scrawny]

First things first.... is it going to be a road registered car?

[bangn]

engine RPM is going to be funny at 100k's in a diesel and 31's.

then there is the torque pulsations that will be fed into the transfer and rear diff thats going to cause issues with accelerated wear of the hardening.

[jdk81]

You dont need a transfer, if using it transaxle.
But it will suck so much ass on road.

You abandoned the other post without addressing/rebutting some of the difficulties pointed out.

You haven't considering loadings (rough figures from other post).
230nm x 3.8 1st gear x 3.9 diff x 3.7 (suzuki diff) is 12kNm, without a great crawl ratio.
youre beyond suzuki limits in the diffs, and will need custom axles.
Changing diff ratios or add a seperate xfer and the problem is worse to run 31s..

You're 21, apparently have oodles of experience, yet are asking super simple problems.
It looks more like this dream belongs in noob talk or I dreamt it and imagination.

Read this and take a page from his book.
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=47745

feel free to offer a rebuttal, im not attacking you, just your concept.
On paper it looks like it will suck so much ass, and a stock bundera or hilux might be a better option.

[Gwagensteve]

The transaxle Thai built cars that ran outback challenge were good for about 90km/h at something like 8000 rpm in their highest range. That's not going to work well as a diesel.

Transaxles are for rock crawling comp buggies only. Not enough high range for anything else, and even then they need revs to work.

Steve.

[jimmey]

jdk81
i never said I " have oodles of experience". as far as the technical side of things like "loadings" go ive really had zero experience, everything ive played with has been kept basically stock. the practical side of modifying Is what i was talking about when I said ive had some experience.
i don't mind if this post has to get moved to a different section, I'm just after some answers.
lets just think of meas a first year apprentice.


are you guys talking about mounting it transaxle in the serria? I was going to mount it normally, and use the transfer like normal, so it could stil be used as a rear 2wd.
in my head this makes sense (leaving out the strength and ratios for now)?? would this work at all?
i know you dont think this is going to work, but it cant hurt to answer a few theoretical questions?

[JrZook]

*Theoretically speaking*
If you could mount the transaxle assembly north-south and welded the diff then yes you could make up a shaft to the transfer and all would be well.

*Practical considerations*
Will it fit between the chassis rails? Probably not
Will the front diff crash into the gearbox? Most likely
Will the drive train handle it? If only limited to easy road use then maybe....

Cool project but seems like a lot of issues to go through to get a mediocre result

[SierraDan]

That's what I meant ^

It should handle wheeling just fine.
But it will for arguments sake be "stuck" in low range.

[Gwagensteve]

And most of all, for the same road speed as the Hyundai would be travelling, revs will be about 5 times higher. That's in high range. In low range, you'll be spinning about 8 times faster.

I'm seeing top speeds around 35-40km/h.

Steve.

[Jim_Aus]

could you "mount" a sierra g/box to it....

[jimmey]

JrZook wrote:

*Theoretically speaking*
If you could mount the transaxle assembly north-south and welded the diff then yes you could make up a shaft to the transfer and all would be well.

*Practical considerations*
Will it fit between the chassis rails? Probably not
Will the front diff crash into the gearbox? Most likely
Will the drive train handle it? If only limited to easy road use then maybe....

Cool project but seems like a lot of issues to go through to get a mediocre result

ohhhhhh yeah okay. that's what I was thinkng.
and I havnt even measured anything off the i30 so the practical questions are definetly there too at the moment.

SierraDan wrote:

That's what I meant ^

It should handle wheeling just fine.
But it will for arguments sake be "stuck" in low range.

Gwagensteve wrote:

And most of all, for the same road speed as the Hyundai would be travelling, revs will be about 5 times higher. That's in high range. In low range, you'll be spinning about 8 times faster.

I'm seeing top speeds around 35-40km/h.

Steve.

now I know htis whole post is super nooby, but I'm gonna push it a bit further.

why would the revs be sitting at 5 times higher? if the i30 gear ratio are pretty much the same as sierra gear ratios and I ran it through transfer with a high gearing of 1:1 and then the sierra diff gearing Is basically the same as the i30i cant see whats happening?

i know I'm missing something here so give it to me gently haha


Jim_aus:
i havnt really thought about it but it is definitely possible to pay someone to fab an adapter I guess.

[Joshyboy26]

Google transaxle north south and east weat engine gearbox layouts and front wheel drive cars i think you're completely missing the point

[bangn]

Because a diesel revs to about 4K in total.
Last time I checked my car sits at 4-5000k RPM in 4th gear on 30's at 100kmhr.

ever revved a diesel? they pull between 1-3K, any further and they run out of torque.

Dependant on the diesel engine of course, but they rev half as hard as a petrol.

arnt you going to run the engine North south? fuck east west for an idea.

[Joshyboy26]

This motor in an i30 is an east west fwd gbox and motor. The op doesn't understand this is different to a north sout rwd motor and gbox.

[droverdave]

How close are the revs of this i30 engine and the diesel hilux engine? If they are about the same,

Get diesel hilux gbox, make adaptor plate (similar to the G16b to G13a gbox that ben T makes), probably need to make the transmission tunnel bigger. Then you'll have to figure out your clutch. custom clutches are no issue, but you might have to convert the sierra to hydraulic, all custom made.

use the hilux transfer case, mount that in. custom jack shaft (assuming the hilux gbox isnt too long)

Hilux diffs weld them in, custom length tailshafts. probably a hilux master cylinder as the brakes will be bigger.

But before you even think about doing any of that, figure out if you can actually run the i30 engine out of the i30 . which for me would involve putting the engine on a DIY engine stand (ie an old tyre), getting a spare battery, getting all your electrics sorted, plumb up a radiator, and start it up.

It sounds like a pretty sweet project, and i can see it workable. The end product though, I myself am not convinced. For the effort and probably 1/3 the cost you can just buy a hilux and it will come with an RWC and aircon. But hey, a project is a project. Go for it, take pics.

[got_bar_work]

Ur missing the diff in the transaxle. It is basically a tc stuck in lowrange.
U have a gearbox -transaxle -transfer case - diff = shit ton of reduction

[Zook_Fan]

got_bar_work wrote:

Ur missing the diff in the transaxle. It is basically a tc stuck in lowrange.
U have a gearbox -transaxle -transfer case - diff = shit ton of reduction

x2. Even without the transfer case you are still very low. It's how you make a transaxle buggy.

You could adapt it to a sierra gearbox and this issue would be gone but you'd have a gearbox that wants to explode when you put that much torque through it. Bad idea is bad.

[JrZook]

jimmey wrote:

why would the revs be sitting at 5 times higher? if the i30 gear ratio are pretty much the same as sierra gear ratios and I ran it through transfer with a high gearing of 1:1 and then the sierra diff gearing Is basically the same as the i30i cant see whats happening?

i know I'm missing something here so give it to me gently haha

If you ran it through a 1:1 transfer it would be 3.9x higher because you would be taking the output from the I30 gearbox which INCLUDES the diff gear reduction of 3.9:1 already eg you are not adapting the transfer directly to the output shaft of the gearbox

[jimmey]

Quote:

If you ran it through a 1:1 transfer it would be 3.9x higher because you would be taking the output from the I30 gearbox which INCLUDES the diff gear reduction of 3.9:1 already eg you are not adapting the transfer directly to the output shaft of the gearbox

Cheers JrZook, that makes a heap more sense now!


ahh I see, sorry guys I didn't fully understand how a transaxle worked, just did a bit of research now and I understand. actually pretty interesting shit.

so basically the only way to get around that now is another donor box? time for a bit more research!!
unless someone makes 1:1 front and rear diff centres lol

[want33s]

light has been seen.

[jdk81]

You could run a vit or hilux case divorced back to front.
So original low on the case would act like an overdrive.
roughly 1/1.82:1 which would make high range half as bad (still terrible, just not ridiculous dumb).
If it had 4.3 rockmonster gears in the case it might be feasible 0.23:1
Which is an expensive way to take high range back to stock.
A lot of work, expense and weight.

You would also need to lock the transaxle diff, and disengage drive to the front.
manual locking hubs or gv diff disconnect.

a lot of cost and compromises

[Gwagensteve]

OK, Sitting at my computer, beer in hand, so I can reply in detail.

Lets get the gearbox out of the way. Obviously, you're going to need to ditch the transaxle and find a RWD gearbox that is short, able to take the torque, and has a tall 5th gear overdrive. You'll need to make an adapter to the motor, sort the flywheel/starter/clutch mess. I'm not going to discuss that in more detail (until later)

OK, now to the motor.

Here's two views of the i30 CRDi. Sorry for the huge photo, but I think it's helpful to see what's going on.





These are quite interesting.

In the first image (the engine bay shot) you can see that the engine's throttle body is slightly behind the rear of the cylinder head. It would point to roughly where the carbon canister is in a normal sierra engine bay. It's also attached to a moulded plastic inlet manifold. This is all pretty normal nowadays, but that means moving the throttle body to a more useful position in front of the motor will involve the fabrication of an entirely new inlet manifold.

The second point this image raises is that unlike many FWD engines, the hot (exhaust) side of the engine is against the firewall. Once the engine is installed in a RWD configuration, that puts the turbo on the diver's side of the motor. That's not a good spot for it, as it has to share real estate with the steering shaft, front diff, front driveshaft, battery, brake booster and M/C - in fact everything that's a pain to clear and likes to be kept cool.

Now have a look at the CAD rendering of the hot side of the motor. You'll see there's a catalyst/DPF sitting RIGHT where the engine mount will want to be on a sierra. You'll also see that the exhaust outlet points at 90 degrees to the crank. That's not much chop for a RWD - it would be pretty much pointing at the shock mount or thereabouts.

Now we get to the crux of the problem with using a late model motor.

These motors use very sophisticated ECUs. They sniff for NOX and oxygen in the exhaust. They also "cook" the catalyst at intervals based on the NOX they are sniffing in the exhaust in order to clean it out. You can't remove or tamper with any of this stuff or the car will throw a code and, potentially, go into limp mode. That means you can't delete, or potentially even move any of that stuff that's in the way. The problem is compounded because these aren't a "performance" engine, so there aren't people out there trying to crank huge power out of them and therefore trying to work around the computer or delete emissions programs. (I mention this because this sort of thing is common with the large diesels used in full-sized North American pickups, as an example)

Because the i30 is a car, it has to comply with car emissions, not light truck emissions. My 2013 defender doesn't run DPF, neither does the land cruiser, but the i30 does.

Does this completely rule out the conversion? I don't know - it's certainly going to make it very, very hard and expensive, or very messy and expensive.

So what would it be like to drive?

Well, some of that depends on how hyundai control the torque. This is a drive-by-wire engine, (another problem) and so the throttle pedal doesn't open a throttle, it talks to a computer, which has a think about what it thinks you want the car to do, and has a chat with the car about what it thinks it can do, and then reaches a compromise. So, even though the car offers 260Nm at very low revs, I bet all 260Nm aren't available in most gears. They also won't be available if the car isn't up to temperature, maybe not if the steering isn't straight…. are you getting the picture? To get that traditional diesel low RPM punch you'll need to fool the computer into thinking the car is warm, it's not going to upset the traction control or ESC, and it's in something like 4th gear.

As an example, my Defender (which couldn't spin a wheel on road in a pink fit) has a completely different throttle map for low range. Revs climb and fall very slowly. The engine behaves like it has a huge flywheel, and throttle response is dulled right down. The i30 doesn't have a low range map - so what is it going to do when it's working really hard but only "sees" 15 km/h? Throw a code? Go into limp? shut down? It wasn't designed with off road use in mind, and I bet you could trick it into doing strange stuff even in the donor i30.

Emissions also dictates also almost everything about the way these motors are setup. They are normally defuelled heavily off boost so they don't smoke, but that makes them soft and doughy - not at all like a diesel should drive. The Defender has anti-stall - and will keep holding idle for as long as possible regardless of gear - but that's going to murder on emissions and a small car won't have it (and doesn't need it) because it's an off road feature.

In my opinion, what you need if you really crave a small diesel in a Sierra is a Golf/Jetta/Carry 1.9 TDi motor converted to a manual fuel pump (no electronics) As I said from the outset, visit the Acme adapters web site and read up heavily on the 1.9 conversion. It's really expensive, even more so once you convert the AHU (electronic injection) motor to a manual pump, but it avoids all the wiring loom/immobiliser/can't mess with anything hassles.
I think as a conversion it will cost upwards of $10K. The finished car won't be worth that, and won't be better in any way than a Sierra with a J20 in it. It certainly won't be any more reliable because of the huge torque load. It will be more economical, but you'll never repay the cost of the conversion based on Km travelled.

I'd also love to play with a Diesel sierra, (manual pump, auto transmission) and I'm realistic enough to realise it won't even make the car any better, but even as a project for project's sake it doesn't make any sense. too many dollars and too much hassle for next to no return.

Hope this helps you understand some of the complexity.

Steve.

[atari4x4]

TL;DR

Cliff notes... as I said in the first reply square hole round peg.

[Gwagensteve]

Yeah, but that wasn't working.

[Jim_Aus]

nice one steve....

[jimmey]

well that certainly puts my lack of knowledge into perspective haha!!

I had no idea of how complex that all is!

thanks heaps steve!

I honestly just wanted something different that hadnt been done before and really just because haah!!
i'll think ill stick to the already done conversions for now!
i appreciate your patience and willingness to help me understand.


You'll probably see another thread of mine in the near future and just roll your eyes haha, i'll do some research on some already proven methods of conversion.


Thanks guys.
Jimmy

[jimnylover]

have a look at vw diesel conversions. you can get a kit from usa and use a 1.6 or 1.9 vag diesel engine. would be closest to what your looking for