[Gwagensteve]

I imagined the cause of failure would be the shaft seal seal before the motor.

Steve.

[Rhinoman]

Paulw wrote:

The instruction manual for the Davies Craig ewp states that the input voltage range is 12-13.5V, most cars go above 13.5v when running I even checked the Jimny workshop manual and the hi range for the alternator output is 14.2-14.8V.

Cheap controllers often calculate based on a fixed bus voltage, if the algorithm is current based then its fairly voltage independent. I wonder if the Davies Craig motor is trapezoidal or sinusoidal, sinusoidal would be a better choice but they claim its a Bosh setup so it should be well tested.

[Paulw]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I imagined the cause of failure would be the shaft seal seal before the motor.

Steve.

The shaft seal had failed but there wasn't any coolant leak from the motor side as it is sealed and no problem was detected until the elect motor failed.

[Rhinoman]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I imagined the cause of failure would be the shaft seal seal before the motor.
Steve.

You would hope so, the reliability would then be the same as a conventional pump but without the belt, The Davies Craig pump has a magnetic clutch which will slip if the pump jams rather than stalling the motor, usually it also keeps the wet side separate from the motor.

[Rhinoman]

Paulw wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

I imagined the cause of failure would be the shaft seal seal before the motor.

Steve.

The shaft seal had failed but there wasn't any coolant leak from the motor side as it is sealed and no problem was detected until the elect motor failed.

Have you got any pics of the setup, what size is the clutch?

[Paulw]

It doesn't have a magnetic clutch, the impeller is directly driven from the motor and sealed using a ceramic face seal.
Sorry I should have taken pics of the pump after i pulled it apart before I binned it.

[Rhinoman]

I misread their literature, its the Electric Booster Pump that has a magnetic cutch. It looks like BMW have an electric pump but at BMW prices - even used its more expensive than the D-C pump

[murcod]

I've got the Davies Craig system (including electronic controller) on a Holden 202 6 cylinder engine; complete with the controller driving an electric cooling fan. I would strongly suggest NOT buying it - purely because the logic in the electronics (ie. software programming) is flawed and will never work as advertised. I contacted Davies Craig about it and their "solution" was to to install a thermostat back into the cooling system - when the whole idea of the electronic controller is for it to control the coolant flow, doing away with the mechanical thermostat.... They weren't the least bit interested in actually working with me on their software to actually produce a system that would work as advertised.

In my case the engine would never get up to temp on cold days (ie. the controller was pulsing the coolant pump "ON" too often). You can also have issues with the passenger compartment heater not working (due to the change in pump location vs heater plumbing inlet/ outlet.) I also came across a forum where another guy had discovered the thermistor used by Davies Craig was totally out of wack (calibration).... and here I was doubting the reading on my 40yr old car instruments when I should have been pointing the finger at the modern electronics being at fault! The controller thermistor reads too low and causes the engine to run hot (on warm days when the engine will actually reach the set point.)

I haven't driven the vehicle for a while so haven't bothered trying to find a workable solution.

[Paulw]

murcod wrote:

In my case the engine would never get up to temp on cold days (ie. the controller was pulsing the coolant pump "ON" too often).

This is even more of a problem with under 2000cc motors especially zook all alloy motors, and I totally agree with the algorithm being flawed it needs some form of scalability even with the thermostat re-installed with the instructed 2 holes drilled in it, the controller performance was still unsatisfactory.
I'm even tempted to build my own analogue controller which I think I could end up with better outcomes than the Davies Craig bullshit, that is with another brand of pump in use.

[murcod]

If they got the software working it would be an awesome system. They just don't seem to have built any "smarts" into the program ie. a check loop to see if the engine is warming up to temp, if it isn't then back off the pump PWM further. From memory, on cold days, it would reach (an indicated) 60 C and the pump would kick into a higher PWM mode - then the temp wouldn't rise any further. The controller wasn't smart enough to do anything about it. I was hesitant to reinstall the thermostat because the coolant flow path inside the engine wouldn't be the same (with it closed) compared to the block mounted OE pump.

I was very disappointed with their attitude. I was willing to help with testing or whatever and they just stopped returning Emails. They wonder why people won't buy Australian made/ designed products???

I was contemplating building something using an Arduino microprocessor http://www.arduino.cc/ , but would need to do some heavy learning on the programming side of that platform. I haven't worked on the vehicle for a long time; one day I'll have to get back into it and sort out an answer. I don't have a choice as the engine isn't fitted in a Holden body and hasn't enough space for a mechanical pump and engine driven fan - or even mechanical pump and electric fan.

[Rhinoman]

double post

[Rhinoman]

murcod wrote:

I would strongly suggest NOT buying it - purely because the logic in the electronics (ie. software programming) is flawed and will never work as advertised. I contacted Davies Craig about it and their "solution" was to to install a thermostat back into the cooling system - when the whole idea of the electronic controller is for it to control the coolant flow, doing away with the mechanical thermostat.... They weren't the least bit interested in actually working with me on their software to actually produce a system that would work as advertised.

In my case the engine would never get up to temp on cold days (ie. the controller was pulsing the coolant pump "ON" too often). You can also have issues with the passenger compartment heater not working (due to the change in pump location vs heater plumbing inlet/ outlet.) I also came across a forum where another guy had discovered the thermistor used by Davies Craig was totally out of wack (calibration).... and here I was doubting the reading on my 40yr old car instruments when I should have been pointing the finger at the modern electronics being at fault! The controller thermistor reads too low and causes the engine to run hot (on warm days when the engine will actually reach the set point.)

I haven't driven the vehicle for a while so haven't bothered trying to find a workable solution.

I would think that they would run a very low flow when the engine is cold simply to avoid hot spots but I have to agree that having the thermostat in does seem to be a bad idea as I would have thought that it would add an additional load on the system. How does the controller work, does it just turn the pump on and off or does it regulate the speed?

[royce]

The one I had (one of the originals) would pulse the pump slowly at idle and warm up and gradually speed up to flat out when you were flogging it (and this was an 1100cc mini with a massive radiator)

I think all systems need the outer ring of the thermostat in it, to keep the backpressure in the system

[31zook]

SuziBlu wrote:

jdk81, sorry, im don here, seems im talking to er, well being answered by people who wish that they still walked, before the wheel was invented, its ok, ill speak to a rock, or maybe a brick, possibility is, better understanding that we live in the now, not as some understand, and that is 100 years or more ago, hey steve.

I ask a question, and am pounded down, attacked with great furry, lol, what fuckin ever, Steve, you should write a book on life the universe and everything, no questions asked.

Thanks all who answered with knowledge.

You asked for people's opinions, and didn't like that people didn't agree with you.

It's hard to argue numbers when your only presenting fluid idealistic ideas.

1 to Steve.

[SuziBlu]

My question.

"Anyone here have one, tried, ??

Im thinking about one, not sure yet."

Where did that ask if I was smarter than every engineer ??

Fuck me, are you on drugs.

Simple question, Steve pounded me with all sorts of bullshit, so you think your smarter than the engineers that designed the system etc,soon as others chimed in saying, worth looking into Steve comes out all helpfull.

Serious, 1 to steve ?

[Anthiron]

It isn't that at all Suziblu. More the opposite.

You asked for peoples advice in order to make an informed decision as you did not have enough knowledge to make the decision without said advice.

The issue is that there are many on this forum who have tried, tested and experimented with many different options (including electric water pump systems as per the above). They have had the failures and losses and sometimes wins which allow them to give advice to other forum members who ask the sort of questions that you did, possibly saving you both time and a considerable amount of money.

No one will stop you from setting up an electric water pump setup on your Suzuki, in fact if you were to do it and have success I think you would see a lot of praise and interest in your project in much the same way as I mentioned above.

The issue is that you asked for the advice of people with more experience and smarter than yourself but were too focused on the idea you had to take the advice into consideration.

I don't think Steve attacked you. If your idea of an attack is constructive criticism on the internet then perhaps open forums really aren't for you.

If you want to set up an electric pump, GO FOR IT.


This whole thing reminds me of every conversation I have when someone asks me why I don't replace the mechanical Alternator fan on my Volkswagen with an electric fan. There is no advantage, in fact there would be a disadvantage due to the electrical load and I would be adding a weak point that was not present before.

[atari4x4]

Anthiron wrote:

I don't think Steve attacked you. If your idea of an attack is constructive criticism on the internet then perhaps open forums really aren't for you.

This!!!!

Stop trying to read between the lines & listen to the advice given.

[murcod]

SuziBlu wrote:

Love the extra power my electric fan gives over the old steel fan, what about an electric water pump ?

I have read up on them, can free up quite a bit of power, even when running at full as they are a far more efficient pump, meaning less power needed for the same LPM flow.

Anyone here have one, tried, ??

Im thinking about one, not sure yet.

I was just looking at the original question again.

My view: I wouldn't do it purely to remove a mechanical load from the engine. I had to do the mod because the vehicle in question hasn't got the original engine and was over heating with the old set up. A suitable sized mechanically driven fan wouldn't physically fit and an electric thermofan wouldn't fit with the mechanical water pump . Hence why I went for the Davies Craig kit - electric pump and electronic controller that drives the pump AND controls an electric thermofan. The perfect solution....... ......

Like I said earlier, it's great in principle and I'm sure could be made into a great kit - but in the form I bought mine in (~2yrs ago) it's a half baked solution that doesn't work as advertised. The correct operation of the electronic controller's software is vital for the cooling system to maintain the set temp and the software IMHO is a dismal failure in that respect.

I don't use it in a daily driver, so can't comment on longevity of the pump. But that would obviously be a concern. I know there have been a couple of different versions of the pump made, mine is the alloy variety and higher capacity (115l rings a bell?) I think the earlier pumps did have a bad reputation?

I'd like to see someone develop something similar that works. Just don't expect that particular kit to fulfill all the promises on the box.