[ishigakisensei]

when it comes to turbocharging. I use the 'seem' because although I have found this the case in my personal research, my knowledge is not universal. I live in Japan where sourcing a G13B DOHC is not nearly a simple idea as one would think. It is fa easier to get a M16 (or M18 from Australia) or a J20a from a wrecker and for a reasonable price. However, strength and power seem to be issues.

I talked to Tajima at the Tokyo Motor Salon last year and he said that 300hp reliably out of a M16 or their big bore M19 engines could never happen. Swift forums in Australia showed the same thing...power could be made but engines (bottom end) would eventually grenade. I have not read about grenading issues with the J20 but I have not seen a high hp one other than the SX4 by Road Race Motorsports in the US. This is a bit surprising to me as the Nissan SR20DET/SR20VET is a 2 liter that has been perfected.

APR has built a kit for the 2L VW Golf making more than 400hp using a Stage III GTX Turbocharger System:
http://www.goapr.com/products/stage3_20_tsi_trans.html

I know that anything can be done with enough money, but if someone is asking then they don't have enough money to buy everything from a big name tuning shop with all new name brand parts. So,is my research accurate and the J20/M-Series engines are not comparable to Nissan/VW? I can be content with an older G13B DOHC engine (or better yet - G16 block with the DOHC head) if I could source one here in Japan. What say the Suzuki people with real-world experience? Do I really have no option but to go old school?

[Gwagensteve]

I'm not really sure what you're asking - is an atmo 1.8 made for cheap small cars comparable to a factory turbo 2.0 designed for the performance market? No, clearly it's not.

I have no idea what power can be made from an M Motor, but regardless, it's not well supported by the aftermarket. This will always make sourcing parts and tuning very difficult.

Trying to compare an M18 to a Golf GTi motor is pointless, likewise an SR20 - both of these motors were designed by the factory for boost and longevity - in the case of the GTi, 300,000km before rebuild. Of course it's possible to tune those motors to much higher output and retain some reliability. VW themselves have tuned a 2.0 four cylinder to 450hp and it still meets VW group reliability targets.

I also have no idea why a Suzuki 4WD needs over 200hp - they seem to go just fine on under 100hp.

[Jezza86]

Put in a 26b quad turbo. 600+ killa wasps mate

[ishigakisensei]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I'm not really sure what you're asking

I am not sure that I understand what you are not understanding. I am not being snarky. I just do not see where I was being obtuse. The engines that I listed are not performance engines (the SR20VE is designed to be an efficient engine) but can be made to produce high hp efficiently without the block or head cracking or outright exploding. The Suzuki G13B DOHC is a very mild engine that can be made to produce reliable high HP and has for many years.

Quote:

I have no idea what power can be made from an M Motor, but regardless, it's not well supported by the aftermarket. This will always make sourcing parts and tuning very difficult.

Hence my presence here and other Australian sites with hat in hand. Asking Japanese shops about things that are not plug and play with an instruction manual like the opening scene right out of the Lego Movie has proven a waste of time. For an example of my experiences here - NO ONE in Japan can believe that a Hayabusa engine has successfully been swapped into a Cappuccino and it is hard for a lot of them to accept this even after seeing YouTube videos. I had a HKS tuning shop in Saitama tell me that such a swap would not be legal in Japan - it would be legal. I had a HKS guy at corporate tell me politely over the phone that I was mistaken in seeing a Hayabusa engine in a Cappuccino as it was not physically possible to fit. You can guess that HKS is not high on my list of favorite Japanese parts companies. Many shops are like the population as a whole - cannot imagine something not already dictated from above to copy again and again.

Quote:

Trying to compare an M18 to a Golf GTi motor is pointless, likewise an SR20 - both of these motors were designed by the factory for boost and longevity - in the case of the GTi, 300,000km before rebuild.

No, my comparison is quite valid and later readers of this thread should not adopt your misinformed view. the SR16/SR20 are but 2 NA engines that had a factory turbo option. Whether or not parts companies flocked to these engines in not material to the factory block/head being so weak as to disintegrate under pressure. A 20 year old Suzuki NA 1.3L block appears to be better engineered and manufactured than modern blocks/heads. VW and Nissan have advanced manufacturing techniques to build engines that do not grenade or melt due to boost pressure on a consistent basis. This is not a case of a blown piston so the comparison is quite apt as many NA engine blocks have been turboed.

Quote:

I also have no idea why a Suzuki 4WD needs over 200hp - they seem to go just fine on under 100hp.

Since I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in any off-road 4WD, I too have no idea and that is why I focused solely on the engines no matter the application. Auzzies/Kiwis have a justified reputation in finding ways to make car modifications not regularly seen elsewhere. Remember, the Nissan RB34DET is not a Japanese invention. This is why I came here hat in hand here to see if anyone on this site has found a way to make power (300hp+) with a newer M13/M15/M16/M18 or J20/J24 engine that has not grenaded or melted due to engineering and manufacturing methods inferior to Suzuki products 20+ years ago.

I may have to go old school, but I think it wise to ask people more experienced and smarter than me and this is why I am here in the noob section rather than polluting a different section. I have tried to source a G13b DOHC engine here in Japan and so far found nothing. Newer engines are more readily found but if they are inherently deficient no matter what...newer is simply not better. This is my hunch but I want to verify.

[Jezza86]

wow. nice rant. tried 2014 jimny seats?, their AMAZING. non turbo motors are not built for turbos. NA engines, built for turbo as a factory option, are built for turbo.
extra metal holds more pressure, and bigger bearings push the piston back up through the compression stroke rather then going all the way down through the block or sump.

pick a better engine to start with, like a 4 rotor 26B, that will without a turbo smash most v8's.


this engine


in this car (but a jimny, which is heavier and slower..........

[ishigakisensei]

Jezza86 wrote:

wow. nice rant.

I must admit that I liked it too.

Quote:

tried 2014 jimny seats?, their AMAZING.

Personally, I LOVE a Jimny. However, parking in Japan costs money and you have to legally prove that you have parking with the police in order to get a car. I already have a boring family car that I want to every day that I am stuck driving it. I want a toy but a Jimny is not what I 'need' for the city.

Quote:

non turbo motors are not built for turbos. NA engines, built for turbo as a factory option, are built for turbo.
extra metal holds more pressure, and bigger bearings push the piston back up through the compression stroke rather then going all the way down through the block or sump.

True, but still NA blocks have been made turbo. Supra guys here in Japan save a lot of money this way all the time. This is also why I specifically referenced the Nissan SR20VE(T) as it is not uncommon to see this block with aftermarket parts. I have no doubt some have, but I have never seen one blown at a race (legal and illegal) - sure, fewer than 30 out of the entire country, but still there are not countless threads online about how crap the SRVE engine is.

Quote:

pick a better engine to start with, like a 4 rotor 26B, that will without a turbo smash most v8's.

I think that you are going to be absolutely right in this. I've now read that the Kizashi heads are apparently crap and Suzuki Australia does not want this info public. But then, I am in Japan and so I have no idea if this in online BS or the real deal. I prefer a newer and more easily accessible engine like the J20A with a turbo kit with 400hp at the crank but if it is going to grenade like a M15 or melt like a M16 or have the heads crack like a J24 out of a Kizashi then going older is going better. I could swap a SR20VET engine but I am a purist in keeping the engine in the family. A Suzuki must have a Suzuki engine.

[Jezza86]

ishigakisensei wrote:

A Suzuki must have a Suzuki engine.

no. no it mussent

the suzuki brand name is one for unmodified reliability
your tying to build godzilla in a coke bottle (1.25L) instead of a milk bottle(2L)

your not building a suzuki

you came here to be rid of your limitations but your statement of "a suzi having a suzi donk" continues them.

loose that mantality, or drop the build before you loose your ¥

[ishigakisensei]

Jezza86 wrote:

your not building a suzuki

I am not following you. A Cappuccino is most certainly a Suzuki and a Hayabusa engine and a G13B engine have already been swapped more than once. This is why I am willing to go with a G13B and if I could have sourced one by now, I would not be here. However, this is a site for Suzuki enthusiasts and it was my hope that someone here had real world experience with a M or J series engine. I am in no way limited in performance with a G13B engine. If the M and J series limitations cannot be overcome then I will continue to bide my time. If I wanted instant Jeremy Clarkson POOOOOOWAH, I'd just get a SR20VET engine and be done with it or got with the Mazda rotary turbo because that one has been done too.

[christover1]

[ishigakisensei]

Despite my desire for purity....that has awesome all over it.

[christover1]

I was just pass the spanner and hold this boy.
Joe was the creator.
Marriage and kids caused him to sell it and buy a family car
It was awesome.
And full legal engineered.

[fordem]

ishigakisensei wrote:

This is why I came here hat in hand here to see if anyone on this site has found a way to make power (300hp+) with a newer M13/M15/M16/M18 or J20/J24 engine that has not grenaded or melted due to engineering and manufacturing methods inferior to Suzuki products 20+ years ago.

Go back to Tajima and ask specifically about the turbocharged J20 engines that were used in the WRC SX4 cars in 2007/8 - 320+ HP - Monster Sport supposedly has the pieces you need to duplicate these. Ask also about the H27 which was supposedly used in one of the Pikes Peak Escudos - 900+ HP.

[Jezza86]

Pikes Peak Escudos did have 2 v6's. pretty mad.

[fordem]

As far as I know the twin engine Escudo had two G16 DOHC "hybrid" engines - the twincam G13 head on the G16 block, I believe the V6 Escudos were all single engine, but twin turbocharged.

[Gwagensteve]

That's my understanding too fordem.

ishigakisensei, you're misunderstanding the problem.

Modern suzuki engines are lighter, make more HP per litre, and use far more efficient cylinder head designs than old suzuki motors. They weren't, however, designed for boost the way the architecture of the SR20 or VW engines were. Put a turbo on an otherwise stock SR20 and it will melt too, but these engines can be built for boost because of a strong aftermarket and factory turbo variants.

[ishigakisensei]

christover1 wrote:

Marriage and kids caused him to sell it and buy a family car
.

Luckily, I've gone with the family car first. I had a R32 Skyline many years ago and had to sell it due to moving. I miss having a toy. I like the Swift, but its FF and for me anyway, a FF cannot be a suitable toy.

[Jezza86]

ishigakisensei wrote:

Jezza86 wrote:

your not building a suzuki

I am not following you. A Cappuccino is most certainly a Suzuki and a Hayabusa engine and a G13B engine have already been swapped more than once. This is why I am willing to go with a G13B and if I could have sourced one by now, I would not be here. However, this is a site for Suzuki enthusiasts and it was my hope that someone here had real world experience with a M or J series engine. I am in no way limited in performance with a G13B engine. If the M and J series limitations cannot be overcome then I will continue to bide my time. If I wanted instant Jeremy Clarkson POOOOOOWAH, I'd just get a SR20VET engine and be done with it or got with the Mazda rotary turbo because that one has been done too.

your building a racecar, not a suzuki. yes it could have suzuki parts in it, but those should be the right parts, not the wrong ones.
another Australian thought for you. new owners are encouraged to drive their cars and get to know when stock, prior to modifying them.

it gives you a good starting point. you may decide power is the first thing to increase, but in reality if i owned a Cap i would be puting some better breaks on, some sticky rubber, and start annoying the shit out of bigger more expensive cars on track days through the tight corners. then as time and money allowed swap in the best engine, no matter the make.

[ishigakisensei]

Gwagensteve wrote:

ishigakisensei, you're misunderstanding the problem.

Actually, no I am not misunderstanding anything. I have sufficient real world experience just at many events at The Gunsai, Tsukuba Circuit, Daikoku Foto/Wangan parking areas, and various car shows, the Tokyo Auto Salon/Fukuoka Auto Salon/Osaka Auto Messe where factory non turbo blocks have been made turbo and did not melt at the crank or routinely grenade. The Suzuki G13/G16 of 20 years ago do not have such a poor reputation.

Gwagensteve wrote:

Modern suzuki engines are lighter, make more HP per litre, and use far more efficient cylinder head designs than old suzuki motors. They weren't, however, designed for boost the way the architecture of the SR20 or VW engines were.

And this is what I suspected - newer Suzuki engines are not engineered to the same level (or better) than Suzuki engines of 20 years ago. The SR20 and VW engines were not engineered "for boost". They were engineered to be strong and reliable just as the G13B was more than 20 years ago allowing them to tolerate boost.

Jezza86 wrote:

your building a racecar, not a suzuki. yes it could have suzuki parts in it, but those should be the right parts, not the wrong ones.
another Australian thought for you. new owners are encouraged to drive their cars and get to know when stock, prior to modifying them.

Wow, I can see that my time coming here seeking information specifically about engine tuning has been for naught. I truly appreciate that the level of expertise and comprehension about performance vehicles cannot be found at this site. Although appearing snarky, I am glad that I need no longer waste my time here.

Quote:

but in reality if i owned a Cap i would be puting some better breaks on, some sticky rubber, and start annoying the shit out of bigger more expensive cars on track days through the tight corners. then as time and money allowed swap in the best engine, no matter the make.

Although appearing offensive, I must be honest - This is the most useless bit of advice that I could have ever read here. Performance parts for the Cappuccino (other than serious HP engines) are already well known and well proven in Japan and overseas. No one on this site can add anything of value in regards to tires/suspension/brakes that I do not already know and have sorted out. Any real performance enthusiast knows that engine tuning always comes last. ALWAYS.

Seriously, why else would a Cappuccino guy living in Japan go to an Aussie site mainly about 4WD (and some Swift owners as well) with some guys who have done some turbocharging? If I needed advice about Cappuccino suspension, I would not be wasting my time or your time here. This is why my query has remained solely focused on engine tuning.

And, as for my desire to build a race car rather than a street car, I could choose from countless examples here in Japan, but I'll just let a Kiwi show an Aussie how its done:

[Jezza86]

ishigakisensei wrote:

This is a bit surprising to me as the Nissan SR20DET/SR20VET is a 2 liter that has been perfected.

yes, t is for turbo. its been perfected with a turbo. oil squirters under the pistons and all.

ishigakisensei wrote:

Wow, I can see that my time coming here seeking information specifically about engine tuning has been for naught. I truly appreciate that the level of expertise and comprehension about performance vehicles cannot be found at this site. Although appearing snarky, I am glad that I need no longer waste my time here.

ishigakisensei wrote:

J20/M-Series engines are not comparable to Nissan/VW?

of course not they were never meant to be factory turbo charged so were designed and engineered with that in mind, just like the SR20DE


so what your actually asking is can there be a reliable m or j series motor that will produce 300hp, or do you have to build a reliable g13/16 motor for my cap that makes 300hp. (assuming you chat with Tajima at the Tokyo Motor Salon last year re 300hp is your actual target with the project)

then sounds to me like you need a strong foundation to base your project on.

yeh sure a old, second hand motor sounds fine fir that have fun!

[jdk81]

ishigakisensei wrote:

Seriously, why else would a Cappuccino guy living in Japan go to an Aussie site mainly about 4WD (and some Swift owners as well) with some guys who have done some turbocharging?

Why would you indeed?
Adding more power to the suzukis typically used on this forum is an expensive solution to a problem we don't have.
I'm sorry you didnt get the results you wanted, but the suzuki driveline cant handle the NA power, beef all that up, and then the suzuki chassis we typically use cant handle the extra power.
And it makes for reliability issues.

There's been 1 turbo charged m18 on the size that I know of.

A few super/turbo charged g engines.
A few bastardised g16 bottom end with g13b heads.

If you did a good search, you would see most threads talking about boosting are time wasters...

[Gwagensteve]

Time wasters like the Kiwi in Japan who keeps hassling HKS about why they can't help him to make 300hp from an obscure motor with almost no enthusiast support?

[vet 180]

Although I personally like the sr20det it is in no way engineered superior to the m16/18

The sr20det is very heavy for an all alloy 4 banger, a lot more than an m series, doesn't reach the same emissions or fuel economy. It almost as if Suzuki engineered the m series to be light weight for small cars with lightweight internals that freely rev while meeting emission standards and being good on fuel......

Someone should have told the engineers to do a better job next time

[vet 180]

Also with all the sr20 support you have in japan why haven't you done this yet?

http://youtu.be/MIBT55fIMsY

[Jezza86]

I suppose some people have questioned a m15 vs a m18 swap before wondering if the extra 300ml will make any difference. The sr18di makes 81 Kw and 150n.m and 81 IS bigger then 92. Just like how 150 is bigger then 170.oah wait thats not how numbers work. Apples and spples. N/A 1.8's together.

[vet 180]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Time wasters like the Kiwi in Japan who keeps hassling HKS about why they can't help him to make 300hp from an obscure motor with almost no enthusiast support?

That's a bit harsh don't you think? It's quite obvious this guy knows more than HKS. He even has proof....Did you not read the part where he found a YouTube vid with a busa engine in a cappuccino?

If the engine is for a race car based cap and has to be suzuki why the hell would anyone in their right mind try and tune a M series and not just use a busa engine? 200HP is going to be more than enough in a cap and it will have the right torque band for the lightweight car. Also if 200hp is not enough for whatever crazy reason there is a lot more performance upgrades available for it than the M series.

Yes the M series is made of glass from a tuning perspective. It is designed and engineered for a purpose. That purpose is not for clowns that want a 300hp Suzuki only engine in a small kei car! Maybe you could send Suzuki a letter telling them that their engines are not engineered well anymore and that the G13b was a far more superior piece of machinery? I am sure if you bring the SR20 into the argument as well as your extensive Autosalon experience combined with your unique knowledge base on Foto/Wangan parking areas they might take you very serious.

Also your Vid of the 34 GTR to "let the kiwi's show the aussies how its done" is the absolute worst argument you could ever have come up with! You realize the worlds fastest H pattern gtr is Australian right? you also know it has no relevance to your Suzuki question right?

[tim80z]

This thread needs more M20A.



- Tim.

[Rhinoman]

The answer is quite simple. Automobiles are extremely cost sensitive these days and need to be as fuel efficient as possible. If you're building a 95bhp 1.3 engine then you build it to handle that, anything more is more cost and more weight with a reduction in efficiency. There are Suzuki engines out there with 100ks on them which proves that the design is more than adequate.