[Dan`]

31zook wrote:

My sides haha, best read in ages, congrats to steve for keeping up the persistence. You other two are either the slowest people on auszookers or the best trolls.

as ive said before, feel free to point out where i am wrong, with examples. or are you just mouthing off for the sake of it?

[GraphicX]

just checked what wikipedia had to say;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locking_d ... ic_lockers

Quote:

Automatic lockers[edit]
Automatic lockers lock and unlock automatically with no direct input from the driver. Some automatic locking differential designs ensure that engine power is always transmitted to both wheels, regardless of traction conditions, and will "unlock" only when one wheel is required to spin faster than the other during cornering. These would be more correctly termed "automatic unlocking" differentials, because their at-rest position is locked. They will never allow either wheel to spin slower than the differential carrier or axle as a whole, but will permit a wheel to be over-driven faster than the carrier speed. The most common example of this type would be the famous "Detroit Locker," also known as the "Detroit No-Spin," which replaces the entire differential carrier assembly. Others, sometimes referred to as "lunchbox lockers," employ the stock differential carrier and replace only the internal spider gears and shafts with interlocking plates. Both types of automatic lockers will allow for a degree of differential wheel speed while turning corners in conditions of equal traction, but will otherwise lock both axle shafts together when traction conditions demand it.

Pros: Automatic action, no driver interaction necessary, no stopping for (dis-) engagement necessary, continuous driving even in unforeseen road condition changes
Cons: Increased tire wear and noticeable impact on driving behavior. During cornering, which half-axle is uncoupled is dependent on torque direction applied by the drivelive. When the torque direction is reversed, the speed of the driveline is suddenly forced to change from the inner to outer axle, accompanied by tire chirping and a large jerk. During cornering, the automatic locker is characterized by heavy understeer which transitions instantly to power oversteer when traction is exceeded.
Some other automatic lockers operate as an open differential until wheel slip is encountered and then they lock up. This style generally uses an internal governor to monitor vehicle speed and wheel slip. An example of this is the Eaton Automatic Locking Differential (ALD), or Eaton Automatic Differential Lock (ADL), developed by the Eaton Corporation and introduced in 1973 for GM's Rounded-Line C/K Series pickups and utilities.[1] The Eaton ADL is sometimes incorrectly called the "Gov-Lok", despite neither GM nor Eaton ever calling it by that name. "Gov-Lok" is rather an unofficial name of unknown origin that gained popularity over the years. Both Eaton and GM do not know where the name came from, and Eaton has made several unsuccessful attempts in the past to debunk the Gov-Lok name.[2] An updated version of the old Eaton ADL design is still available from Eaton, now known as the Eaton mLocker mechanical differential lock.[3]

Some other automatic lockers operate as an open differential until high torque is applied and then they lock up. This style generally uses internal gears systems with very high friction. An example of this is the ZF "sliding pins and cams" available for use in early Volkswagens.

so that means that steve is 80% correct i guess ? he's wrong about production cars not using them since the 1960s, but also there is a variety of locker that works in the way dan & dc3 claim, but it's unusual in design & not of the lokkrite/spartan variety you'd fit to a zook.

so i guess we'll wait for more youtube vids & what are becoming personal attacks rather than just trying to show one another what is correct or incorrect.

[GraphicX]

here's what wiki says about LSD diffs & locking;

Quote:

Limited slip differentials are considered a compromise between a standard differential and a locking differential because they operate more smoothly, and they do direct some extra torque to the wheel with the most traction compared to a standard differential, but they are not capable of 100% lockup.

[Dan`]

GraphicX wrote:

here's what wiki says about LSD diffs & locking;

Quote:

Limited slip differentials are considered a compromise between a standard differential and a locking differential because they operate more smoothly, and they do direct some extra torque to the wheel with the most traction compared to a standard differential, but they are not capable of 100% lockup.

its late and im buggered from busting my arse all day so will read your first post 2morrow, as for your comment above is pretty much right on the money. you need to think of it more like "horses for courses". some types of lsd's are better at some kinds of jobs, comparing a normal clutched lsd versus a torsen geared type lsd versus a mechanical type lsd versus a viscous lsd (and other types ive probably forgotten to mention), and even air lockers and auto lockers and not to forget full spool diffs they all do essentially the same job (transferring drive from tailshaft to axles/wheels) in a slightly different way from each other making them better or worse in a particular type of vehicle for the way its used. as for mechanical LSD, tehy are not just like a normal clutched lsd and they do in fact lock up when under power which is why they are used so often for racing/drifting etc, for a road type car (non 4x4) they have the advantage that they can handle like an open diff, so minimise understeer when needed but still lock up when you are powering out of a corner ensuring you get full drive to both wheels.

(hope that makes sense.... did i mention im buggered... so sorry if it didnt)

[31zook]

You think that auto lockers are unlocked at rest?

[GraphicX]

what you said dan is kinda like saying regular open diffs can also be locked if you weld the spider gears (cig diff so to speak). if you lock an lsd you really don't have an lsd any more.

[Dan`]

GraphicX wrote:

what you said dan is kinda like saying regular open diffs can also be locked if you weld the spider gears (cig diff so to speak). if you lock an lsd you really don't have an lsd any more.

no, with a mech lsd its "loose" when your off the power. it acts just like a normal clutched lsd, or even weaker if you have it set that way. it only "locks" when you accelerate and put some force into it, similar to the way an auto locker locks. go watch the vid i posted on 1, 1.5 and 2 way mech lsd's. he goes into detail about how they work and should make it a lot clearer than i can through simple words

[greenzook89]

Who cares. Auto lockers are junk anyway

[Marko_SJ]

greenzook89 wrote:

Who cares. Auto lockers are junk anyway

Nah mate, they are the bomb-diggity.

[jdk81]

So do i need to find an lsd, or an auto-UNlocker?
I want a diff that's locked offroad, but still allows me to keep my reverse spin ratio on road?

[31zook]

An auto locker is locked at rest. It is nothing like a LSD.

[Dan`]

31zook wrote:

An auto locker is locked at rest. It is nothing like a LSD.

1) then now does it unlock

2) explain to me what the function of the pinion shaft and the ovaled hole that it sits in inside the locker?

[GraphicX]

jdk81 wrote:

So do i need to find an lsd, or an auto-UNlocker?
I want a diff that's locked offroad, but still allows me to keep my reverse spin ratio on road?

if you drive your car daily & paid more than $100 each for your rear tyres i'd stay well clear of an auto locker.

[jdk81]

So the auto lockers aren't locked to each other all the time?
But are both locked to the minimum speed of the crown wheel?

So i wont have the reverse circle spin ratio anymore?
Wont my car lose power then?

[damø]

Dan` wrote:

31zook wrote:

An auto locker is locked at rest. It is nothing like a LSD.

1) then now does it unlock

2) explain to me what the function of the pinion shaft and the ovaled hole that it sits in inside the locker?

1. by applying torque to one of the wheels, its not relevant how much torque is required, it still requires work to be done to disengage. an air locker is only engaged by a small air solenoid, pressurised air engages it, and mechanical force disengages it.

2. the cam action prevents the locker from disengaging by not allowing the clutches on either side to displace, as you know. Note the locker is engaged when at rest and remains engaged as the crown wheel turns.

this argument that '4 little springs doesnt mean its locked' doesnt make sense. clutch and mechanical LSD's both allow varying amounts torque to be transmitted to each wheel when force is applied to them, they never completely lock. an auto locker differs because it relies on the disengagement and displacement of a mechanical interface.

[31zook]

Look, you have an entire forum trying to convince you your wrong. Im all for the underdog changing the world. But you might aswell be trying to convice people motors spin the opposite way.

I believe there might be LSDs that behave that way, but mechanical lockers work this way.

PS: The oval holes are cause the center two pieces travel in and out as they engage and disengage. If they were straight holes the pins and springs would mash each other to pieces. Like mechanical lockers do to backlash/ring/pinion gears/bearings/CVs/axlesplines/uni joints... unlike LSDs

[damø]

Dan` wrote:

GraphicX wrote:

what you said dan is kinda like saying regular open diffs can also be locked if you weld the spider gears (cig diff so to speak). if you lock an lsd you really don't have an lsd any more.

no, with a mech lsd its "loose" when your off the power. it acts just like a normal clutched lsd, or even weaker if you have it set that way. it only "locks" when you accelerate and put some force into it, similar to the way an auto locker locks. go watch the vid i posted on 1, 1.5 and 2 way mech lsd's. he goes into detail about how they work and should make it a lot clearer than i can through simple words

i think you need to read a bit more into the function of a mechanical lsd. most mechanical lsd's like torsens will transfer some amount of torque to the wheel with the most traction when driven as opposed to an open diff that transfers it to the wheel with the least amount of traction, which is why they give the impression of being 'locked up' when cornering on road as you describe. however if you look more closely at their design you will see they can only transfer torque when BOTH wheels have some amount of traction, if you have a wheel with little or no traction, then an insignificant amount of torque will be transferred to the other wheel. when you start talking about 1, 1.5 and 2 way lsd's you're talking about when the lsd functions as opposed to how(2 way lsd's work when torque is applied in both forward and reverse)

[DC3PTIKON]

Many Honda motors do spin the opposite way. Just sayin'

[jdk81]

You can run can start 2 stroke motorbikes backwards too.
Stupid easy way to hurt yourself, hilarious when someone stalls while riding up a steep slope and accidentally run starts it backwards, eventually crashing into a heap of thistles and cow shit.

But doesnt help the discussion at all.

[31zook]

DC3PTIKON wrote:

Many Honda motors do spin the opposite way. Just sayin'

Case and point. We are talking about mechanical lockers and you are talking about LSDs

[DC3PTIKON]

31zook wrote:

DC3PTIKON wrote:

Many Honda motors do spin the opposite way. Just sayin'

Case and point. We are talking about mechanical lockers and you are talking about LSDs

I didnt mention LSD's.

I love a good discussion, the point is that some people are posting information on here from Wikipedia of all places, then a mechanical engineer that has played with 4WD's since they were a kid but then couldn't remove a diff drain plug a few weeks back, and someone talking about motors that turn the other way (which some do in normal operation). How experienced or accurate can their information be? Anyone that has some knowledge of cars knows this stuff. I like to read other peoples views and experiences etc, but I cant take advice from Wikipedia or someone that cant remove a drain plug.

[Dan`]

DC3PTIKON wrote:

or someone that cant remove a drain plug.

aww dude thats harsh.... the fill plug on my transfer is locked solid, ive tried everything from impact sockets to cold chiselling it off to heating it with a gas axe... nothing has budged that sucker. im going to have to drill it out..... just because i cant remove a damn drain plug does not mean i dont know anything... :'(

[damø]

DC3PTIKON wrote:

31zook wrote:

DC3PTIKON wrote:

Many Honda motors do spin the opposite way. Just sayin'

Case and point. We are talking about mechanical lockers and you are talking about LSDs

I didnt mention LSD's.

I love a good discussion, the point is that some people are posting information on here from Wikipedia of all places, then a mechanical engineer that has played with 4WD's since they were a kid but then couldn't remove a diff drain plug a few weeks back, and someone talking about motors that turn the other way (which some do in normal operation). How experienced or accurate can their information be? Anyone that has some knowledge of cars knows this stuff. I like to read other peoples views and experiences etc, but I cant take advice from Wikipedia or someone that cant remove a drain plug.

i wanted to know if anyone else could come up with a suggestion on how to get the 20 year old rusted in drain plug out other than destroying it, and it turned out they couldnt. in fairness i did get the plug out though

[DC3PTIKON]

Dan` wrote:

DC3PTIKON wrote:

or someone that cant remove a drain plug.

aww dude thats harsh.... the fill plug on my transfer is locked solid, ive tried everything from impact sockets to cold chiselling it off to heating it with a gas axe... nothing has budged that sucker. im going to have to drill it out..... just because i cant remove a damn drain plug does not mean i dont know anything... :'(

Ha, sorry dude! But you've worked it out, like you said you're going to drill it out.

[DC3PTIKON]

damø wrote:

DC3PTIKON wrote:

31zook wrote:

DC3PTIKON wrote:

Many Honda motors do spin the opposite way. Just sayin'

Case and point. We are talking about mechanical lockers and you are talking about LSDs

I didnt mention LSD's.

I love a good discussion, the point is that some people are posting information on here from Wikipedia of all places, then a mechanical engineer that has played with 4WD's since they were a kid but then couldn't remove a diff drain plug a few weeks back, and someone talking about motors that turn the other way (which some do in normal operation). How experienced or accurate can their information be? Anyone that has some knowledge of cars knows this stuff. I like to read other peoples views and experiences etc, but I cant take advice from Wikipedia or someone that cant remove a drain plug.

i wanted to know if anyone else could come up with a suggestion on how to get the 20 year old rusted in drain plug out other than destroying it, and it turned out they couldnt. in fairness i did get the plug out though

Nice work Bud!

[damø]

DC3PTIKON wrote:

damø wrote:

DC3PTIKON wrote:

31zook wrote:

DC3PTIKON wrote:

Many Honda motors do spin the opposite way. Just sayin'

Case and point. We are talking about mechanical lockers and you are talking about LSDs

I didnt mention LSD's.

I love a good discussion, the point is that some people are posting information on here from Wikipedia of all places, then a mechanical engineer that has played with 4WD's since they were a kid but then couldn't remove a diff drain plug a few weeks back, and someone talking about motors that turn the other way (which some do in normal operation). How experienced or accurate can their information be? Anyone that has some knowledge of cars knows this stuff. I like to read other peoples views and experiences etc, but I cant take advice from Wikipedia or someone that cant remove a drain plug.

i wanted to know if anyone else could come up with a suggestion on how to get the 20 year old rusted in drain plug out other than destroying it, and it turned out they couldnt. in fairness i did get the plug out though

Nice work Bud!

+1 experiences for me! now if only i could work out how a mechanical connection isnt actually a connection, might have to start a thread and ask?

[atari4x4]

jdk81 wrote:

So do i need to find an lsd, or an auto-UNlocker?
I want a diff that's locked offroad, but still allows me to keep my reverse spin ratio on road?

finally

[lgp29]

Dan` wrote:

lgp29 wrote:

Going to do away with this bloody thing.

Does anyone know a local supplier of spools?

if you sell it give me a yell sounds like its exactly what i want.

guess your probably sick of it by now anyway but i found that in the nissans the mechanical lsd'd (which i assume are very similar to the lockers) the type of oil made a massive difference in the bangs (in several different brands of centers, nismo, cusco, i forget the other brand ive worked on). i forget which brand of oil it was now but i know it when i see the bottle, will try and remember to go have a look.

Dan it's in a bag on the bench in the shed. PM if ya keen.

Had a trip planned and was not at all happy with the auto locker so pulled it and threw in a welded centre as a spool was too far away.

Very happy with the welded diff.

Drove about 600ks return trip Including 110kph freeway, winding tar hills, low range crawling through creeks and obstacle courses and a couple of slippery dusty hill climbs.

[31zook]

Spools are the future for weekend rigs!

[Myles]

Dan` wrote:

damø wrote:

im actually not sure if you guys are trolls or being serious

i assume that is aimed partly at me, if you can find a flaw in anything i have said by all means point it out, preferably with examples (but not just static pics which seem to show nothing). im happy to admit im wrong if anyone ever proves me wrong and i will happily admit i do not know everything.

edit: fwiw ive had my current GTI drover for over 15 years now and at the time i was the only person id ever heard of to fit a GTI to a sierra, in fact in the GTI conversion thread im pretty sure that using the charade thermo would have originally come from me because just before i did the gti swap i did a twin cam swap into a g11 charade and had the old g11 thermo laying around which was why i used it. i also have a jap spec imported jimni (same as sierra but with the massive turbo 660cc donk) which ive had probably 10 years and ive just bought myself a coily a couple of weeks ago which is why im here, to not only learn but to share my experience. before that i had a 1L sierra for years through the 90's. im certainly not here to troll, just to share. ive worked in and around importing, racing, rallying, compliancing, ADR stuff and all manner of things over my years and have a ton of experience in all kinds of things.

Not good enough. You've only been on this forum for a year and you've got less then 200 posts. You can't possibly know anything