[Technotron101]

Hi all,

I'm looking to buy a stockman, purely because they have more leg room than a standard sierra ute, however my dad reckons that the vitara has a better ride, interior and the likes. We were considering putting a 1.6l and a 5-speed into a stockman anyway, because a 1.0l basically, doesn't cut it.

If we were to convert a lwb vitara wagon to a ute, we would already have the 1.6l, and 5-speed, and supposed better on-road handling, noise, and interior looks.

Does anyone have any feedback on which would be better/easier/more effective?

Do the vitaras have a ladder frame chassis? Is the wheelbase of a vitara lwb wagon the same as a maruti/stockman? Which year is the best/one to look out for? Is there anything I should consider?

I really like the sierras, but the on-road handling and noise isn't the best if I'm correct, and seeing as though it will be used mostly on-road is this a factor I should be taking more seriously?

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

P.S. I'd prefer a carb engine (G16a??), does anyone know which year/models have these?

[rustyzook]

Really depends on how much you want to spend. Cutting a vit down into a ute will need to be engineered, there would be a long More in that then the engineering of a g16 into Sierra.

[Technotron101]

True, but vits seem to be cheaper to purchase... Tough... There'd be a lot of body work needed for the vit though, because the back panel doesn't have any door jams, and then the rear door would have to be removed, then the hole patched up, then do something with the lights, coz they'd look kinda weird in front of a tray... Hmmm

[rustyzook]

Are you looking at chopping a swb or lwb vit? Vit are quite nice to drive, the front IFS lets them down off road tho.

[Technotron101]

Lwb wagon.

Hmm. Are they leaf sprung on the rear though? Do they have smaller wheels than the sierras? All the photos I see, it seems like the vitaras (lwb especially) have little to no ground clearance. The sierras appear to have more, but it could be an optical illusion because of the wheel sizes

[Gwagensteve]

Vitaras have 27" diameter tyres. Sierra are 26" diameter.

Rear of vitara is A-frame/three link coil sprung.

There are no carby LWB vitaras, and you don't want one. The G16B is far superior.

On road handling isn't the vitaras strong point. They handle terribly standard. (I believe they are dangerous and should have been withdrawn from sale)

The front diff setup of the vitara is made of glass.

Steve.

[Technotron101]

Well! Good to hear some varying opinion. Do you think the handling would be better or worse than the sierra (maruti)?

I was thinking about the IFS and it's strength/reliability. The sierra's certainly seem pretty bulletproof.

Where does the G16A come from then?

[rustyzook]

G16A were in the early SWB, they have an alloy front housing and it is as Steve said "glass". I never had any trouble with the the steering on my SWB, it seemed more stable on the road and moved along quite nicely and was really comfy compared to any of my sierras. How ever off road it was a pig and the sierras left it for dead.

If any Suzuki should have been withdrawn from sale it should have been the jimny, when the wobble starts there's not much you can do.

[Technotron101]

Interesting. Does the IFS really suffer for traction?

[rustyzook]

tye IFS suffers from being made out of a mild cheese.

[Technotron101]

Overall, do you think the sierra or the vitara is a better car? I've heard that the G16 engines crack blocks, but do you know how common that is?

[rustyzook]

It happens, I cracked mine last February, it weeps coolant but dosent really spray out under pressure so I haven't worried too much about it just yet if you look after it it should be fine, if it plays up just chuck another one in it.

Personally I like the Sierra over the vitara, but my Sierra is mainly off road. I do most of my on road driving in a work ute or my wife's car.

[jdk81]

I have had a few cracked g16bs.

A lwb vit made into a ute would be a massive mission to get it to look right.
It wouldn't really be worth while

g16b into the maruti would be the better option of the two.
A g16b with the vit auto into the maruti would be my choice.

Do a RUF, a panhard on the front (yes I know it is leaf sprung, but it makes the car better).
Rear spring rate will be determined by how much you intend to carry.
It's difficult to make it ride nice empty, but be able to carry GVM and not be on the bumpstops a lot

.

[Gwagensteve]

There have been a couple of "comp" (actual comp, not a light bar and a rubbish chop) LWB utes built in Australia. I reckon they're quite pretty and a good length once chopped (and I almost NEVER say that about ute chops.)

BUT

Yes, it's a lot of work. for the work, you won't really end up with that much payload or tray size. The added complexity of the driveline (IFS front etc) makes them more fragile and less suited to off road work without spending quite a lot of money on the front end. Also, you'll be starting with quite an old vitara. If it's been used off road, they have a propensity to crack the chassis around the front strut uprights. They also bend idler arms.

The vitara cab, is much wider at the sills and more vulnerable because the doors are larger and run closer to the sill. You also can't replace all items above the belt line like you can in a Sierra if you roll it.

The problem with the IFS isn't to do with a lack of traction, actually, quite the opposite. the front end of Vitaras will barely ever lift off the ground - they keep the front really loaded up which is why they are very hard on their weak alloy diff housing.

Steve.

[Technotron101]

Hmm thanks for the info.

I had another idea, and that is to get a cheap normal suzuki ute, cut it behind the door and stretch by 100-150mm. This would give the same amount of cab space as a maruti, but without the crappy fibreglass roof, and fibreglass back and the dodgy looking cab termination. It seems like it's just a lwb wellback/style side ute, simply cut off, and that's it. (It probably is). There seems to be a lot of hard edges, which to me seem like a magnet for rust. The genuine suzuki utes however have a full enclosed cab, made of steel, and the roof and back are all the same thing, not to mention the proper, rounded cab termination.

I don't think cutting and extending the cab on one of these would be too difficult a task. It would be pretty much a cut all around the body, then insert a strip of metal all around the body, then weld her up again. Then you're left with a nice, genuine cab termination, and a long cab, and it's an actual zook not some indian import rebadged.

Any thoughts?

[sideways]

Yes, trayback Marutis are chopped down longbodies.

There's an extracab LWB sierra that gets around near here (Bridgetown) it's made from a cut down SWB hardtop. I don't have any pics but it looks very good (though I haven't seen it for years).

I think a cut, extended and shut trayback would be very hard work. There's an awful lot rather flat, extremely thin and visible panels to warp when you weld. The shape for the roof and floor is going to get complex too. I wouldn't bother for a 4-6" stretch, I could see the value is extending it enough to put a fridge and gear behind the seats but you're going to have a very short tray then. Have you driven one yet? Leg room really isn't that much of an issue.

Aside from looking wacko (needs a vertical rear wall and squarer edges) I don't think there's anything really wrong with the Maruti roof. They're quiet and can be leakproof with a little work. The big advantages for most on here are if you roll/flop then everything that typically gets damaged is easily replaceable, you can also run roofless which in the right mood is great fun/lovely in summer with shade cloth over the top.

I don't think rust is an issue in a relative sense. Marutis can rust where the bottom wall meets the floor but other than that the chop is pretty rust proof. Although not particularly common, Sierras can rust around the edge of the roof. Believe me, this is not easy to fix. Most sierra utes have their roofs slightly stoved in from kids sitting on them ect. Also Marutis have had many less years to get rusty.

The build quality on Marutis isn't as good but it isn't horrible or anything and it's not like Sierras are built by Mercedes.

Check out Jonno_racing's Maruti, he chopped the roof and made the rear wall vertical.

I think a Vitara ute could look very good and be a nice length for 2 people but it'd sure be a lot of work. I'd start with an SV620 over a 1.6, they're all dirt cheap now so you might as well start off the better engine/interior ect.

[rustyzook]

Chopping a standard Suzuki ute will also need engineering as you will need to cut the b pillar, also the back of the Suzuki ute cabs is a common spot for rust as mud sits on the lip.

Instead of re inventing the car, why not find one of each that you can take for a drive and see how you like it?

[Technotron101]

Trying to find them is the hard part. Finding somewhere to drive is harder (I'm only 15 and can't drive on-road yet).

I understand that cutting will require engineering, but I like the idea of having a genuine suzuki, rather than some indian cross-breed thing. Besides, the cab on the maruti is still pretty dodgy looking with lots of sharp edges, and I've pretty much given up on the vitara.

[jdk81]

No offense intended, but unless you started panel beating while in nappies, I think trying to do a heap of neat body work is a dream, best left a dream.

Body/panel fab/work looks really easy on the tv shows etc, but it's very skilled work.

Trying to do this type of project becomes expensive with all the sundries and I think you're being a little too optimistic.

Suzuki chassis and body fab isn't good (some is terrible), maruti chassis and body fab can't be that much worse.

[rustyzook]

jdk81 wrote:

No offense intended, but unless you started panel beating while in nappies, I think trying to do a heap of neat body work is a dream, best left a dream.

Body/panel fab/work looks really easy on the tv shows etc, but it's very skilled work.

Trying to do this type of project becomes expensive with all the sundries and I think you're being a little too optimistic.

Suzuki chassis and body fab isn't good (some is terrible), maruti chassis and body fab can't be that much worse.

Not too mention trying to weld what Suzuki calls steal, it's thin, really thinn. There really isn't anything wrong with marutis they are pretty decent, but if you really want an extra cab, maybe a hilux is better for you?

[tanshi]

just find a lwb full bodied sierra soft top. yes they exist. then find a fibreglass roof for it. yes they also exist.

[Technotron101]

I went and sat in a swb soft top today, and pushed the seat back to where a ute back would be, and I fit in it fine. First time actually sitting in a zook and I love it. The doors are awesome. They're so light and yeah. Like em. The WT dash is ugly tho. NT seems the way to go. I reckon I might just try and get a ute and deal with it, and if it becomes too small in a few years time then I'll try and find a maruti or chop the ute or something. Having sat in a swb and simulated a ute I reckon a standard ute'll be fine. Thanks guys.

As for the hilux... No... Just no...

[Gwagensteve]

How did you simulate the position of the seat? It's not flush with the back of the B pillar, it's further forward than that - the back wall of the cab is recessed forwards. I'm 5'7" and have very short arms and legs and with a reclining seat in my car the headrest is HARD on the back window.

Taller people are better with the very thin non-adjustable factory ute seats (which are awful, but provide more space) or a fixed-back seat which have very thin backrests.

Also, because the lack of legroom pushes taller people's knees up, some people find a 15" dished steering wheel, and/or an additional staring wheel spacer, brings the wheel closer to the driver driving more knee room.

[Technotron101]

I made sure it was at least 50-60mm in front of the back of the targa bar/b-pillar. The bottom of the seat was fine. But the back leaned back too far reclined for me. The seat adjuster didn't seem to have any other positions other than sitting, and folded forward... So with that in mind, that I like a more upright driving position, the seat could theoretically go back further, giving more legroom. I'd have to sit in an actual ute one day tho. The seats and thicknesses may be different.

Liked the zook tho.

[Gwagensteve]

Yes, stock sierra reclining seats as used in 1.3's are far too reclined in their most upright position to work with the stock steering wheel position. I suspect the person responsible for ergonomics at Suzuki at that time was either a gorilla, or thought Italian cars from the 1970's were awesome.

I have seen stock 1.3 seats modified for less recline but it involves grinding engagement teeth off the mechanism so I'd hesitate to recommend it.

[Technotron101]

Hmm. Are the ute seats more upright?

[Gwagensteve]

Ute seats are two bits of plywood with 2" of foam on them. They aren't adjustable - (no fore-aft slide or recline) and the headrest is bolted to the rear of the cab. They are truly awful, but they do make the most of the tiny amount of room in the cab.

[Technotron101]

Different to the 1.3 sierra seats then... Hmmm. I'd have to try a ute. Maybe even find somewhere off the road that I can take it for a drive and see how the driving geometry feels to me. Haven't driven a sierra yet. Looking forward to one tho

[Gwagensteve]

It sucks with ute seats. The seat is too low, there's inadequate support, the wheel feels too high and too far away compared to the pedals.

It takes a bit of work to get the ergonomics right in a sierra. Even getting the clutch and brake pedals to sit at the same height makes the car nicer to drive.

[Technotron101]

Yeah. Do you have any ideas for any specific seats that fit in the ute without taking too much space, that are a teensy bit less wood and more seat? Headroom seemed fine in the swb, so height for the base of the seat is probably the most important.

The 1.3 seat felt like it could be a bit higher, and another zook the guy had, was fitted with some other seats (from an x-90 I think) which were far softer and much higher. How would something like that fit in a ute?