[vet 180]

So I am thinking of removing the swaybar on the jim. At the moment the suspension is stock, but when upgrade I am thinking high quality shocks and 0-40mm lift, either way the springs wont be that stiff. I often drive at 140kph on the highway (big multilane highways) so I image the crosswinds might become even scarier than they are now. I do push the car quite hard on-road taking bends/highway on-ramps at 120-140 kph, but still i find the limiting factor even at those speeds is the under steer. With the swaybar removed would the car become more neutral? I do understand the transition stuff will be more violent, but I kind of like that the jimny already teaches you to drive smooth with that so a little more shouldn't bother me too much.

Off-road I do a lot of big dunes and technical sand stuff a lot of sharp ridges etc so I thing a little more articulation would be nice. I really notice the under-steer off-road, maybe it is my driving style but I notice it most when trying to keep momentum up through tight tracks and thinking removing the swaybar might help?

The big question to those that have removed their swaybars is would you let your wife drive with no swaybar?

[Gwagensteve]

It took you longer to type that than to remove the swaybar and take it for a drive so you could make your own mind up.

It's certainly going take longer to sift though the conflicting responses your'e going to receive.

[Kor3y101]

I believe that may be why no-one else has responded.

Take off the two bolts and drop it out and take it for a spin. Put it back in if you don't like how it feels.
I have taken mine off and I honestly don't notice much of a difference. It's always had a bit of body roll and I corner it harder then I should sometimes. Although granted I don't go down the highway at 140kph, I didn't know a Jimny could even achieve that?! Haha.

It's a personal choice thing. Give it a crack!

[fordem]

vet 180 wrote:

The big question to those that have removed their swaybars is would you let your wife drive with no swaybar?

NO.

[THE_DICTATOR]

fordem wrote:

vet 180 wrote:

The big question to those that have removed their swaybars is would you let your wife drive with no swaybar?

NO.

My wife drives mine with no swaybar.

[Toomanycars]

140 with no sway bars...do you have a death wish for you or your wife !!!!

[vet 180]

Gwagensteve wrote:

It took you longer to type that than to remove the swaybar and take it for a drive so you could make your own mind up.

It's certainly going take longer to sift though the conflicting responses your'e going to receive.

Gwagensteve wrote:

It took you longer to type that than to remove the swaybar and take it for a drive so you could make your own mind up.

It's certainly going take longer to sift though the conflicting responses your'e going to receive.

Fair call. Was at home sick at the time of posting.

Kor3y101 wrote:

I believe that may be why no-one else has responded.

Take off the two bolts and drop it out and take it for a spin. Put it back in if you don't like how it feels.
I have taken mine off and I honestly don't notice much of a difference. It's always had a bit of body roll and I corner it harder then I should sometimes. Although granted I don't go down the highway at 140kph, I didn't know a Jimny could even achieve that?! Haha.

It's a personal choice thing. Give it a crack!

Cheers for the input. It does 140 quite easy, anything higher is fighting an uphill battle. I have had it at 155 before on a slight downhill.

Toomanycars wrote:

140 with no sway bars...do you have a death wish for you or your wife !!!!

No. The wife normally puts a bit slower though. I think I might take Steves advice and remove myself and drive if I feel its ok, let the wife drive and see what she says.

[Gwagensteve]

The swaybar doesn't change physics, it only reduces the feeling of weight transfer. I'd rather a driver feel what was going on (and therefore drive accordingly) than have less body roll and then wonder what happened when the car runs out of grip.

[30ONA]

This Is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. You Drive really fast, hopefully not risking anyone else on the road at the time, and you want to remove a critical component of the suspension that was installed for a reason. Do You think touring cars have no sway bars. As Steve said above it will reduce your grip on the road.

And We haven't even touched on the legalities.

[tanshi]

haha, re read what steve said.

[Gwagensteve]

Don't misrepresent my comments to support your nonsense claims.

A swaybar does not "increase your grip on the road" nor is it a "critical component" of the suspension.

Did Land Rover fit swaybars to the discovery and defender years after their introduction because they discovered they'd forgotten a critical part of the suspension, or did they fit them to make it feel more car-like for drivers too ignorant to understand they were driving a 4wd with a high centre of gravity?

Do Lotus realise they are missing a critical part of the suspension in the Elise? Perhaps you should send the a strongly worded letter to tell them their mistake.

Vet180 is in (forgive me if I'm wrong) Dubai or the UAE. The typical highway speed is 140km/h

[30ONA]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Don't misrepresent my comments to support your nonsense claims.

A swaybar does not "increase your grip on the road" nor is it a "critical component" of the suspension.

Did Land Rover fit swaybars to the discovery and defender years after their introduction because they discovered they'd forgotten a critical part of the suspension, or did they fit them to make it feel more car-like for drivers too ignorant to understand they were driving a 4wd with a high centre of gravity?

Do Lotus realise they are missing a critical part of the suspension in the Elise? Perhaps you should send the a strongly worded letter to tell them their mistake.

Vet180 is in (forgive me if I'm wrong) Dubai or the UAE. The typical highway speed is 140km/h

I did not mean to misrepresent you. It Seems I misunderstood you. But I do disagree with your last post. The Justification for my comments is that if a part is included in the construction by the designers, it is critical. I imagine this is how the majority of authorities would look at it. Including Insurance companies and authorities in MOST countries. This I would call it critical. If It never had one that is another case.

As For the grip. It Makes sense to me that if you can increase the force of the outside wheel onto the ground through the use of a sway bar you should have more grip. Two Wheels with a higher combined pressure on the road will produce more friction and hence more grip.

[MrRocky]

Id say it would be nearly impossible to make a jimny handle worse than the stock setup. I dont imagine the swaybar making anything much better regarding handling in standard form.
Most members on here and other groups report a more stable feel in there jimnys with the swaybar removed.

[losfer]

If im not mistaken vet180 lives in the UAE ?

Dont they all drive at those speeds there?

[shep]

It's 130kph where I live so I am supprised that the UAE is only 140kph

[losfer]

shep wrote:

It's 130kph where I live so I am supprised that the UAE is only 140kph

i dont think the speed limit is 140 i think thats the max jimny speed haha , he did say 150 odd with a tailwind once.\

[Gwagensteve]

140 is normal highway cruising speed in the UAE.

[losfer]

300na you edited your post.

a lot of components on vehicles are not critical to their operation or safety , manufacturers add them for other reasons . same reason as VAG tried to cheat the emmision tests to pass a certain euro standand. its not critrical to the operation but its essential for the vehicle to pass a certain safety standard. many children will die if vet180 removes his sway bay

[watermouse]

The moose test.

If you have moose in your country leave the sway bar fitted.

[fordem]

30ONA wrote:

As For the grip. It Makes sense to me that if you can increase the force of the outside wheel onto the ground through the use of a sway bar you should have more grip. Two Wheels with a higher combined pressure on the road will produce more friction and hence more grip.

Have you actually tried this or just "thought it through"?

I believe the generally accepted position is that sway bars actually reduce grip at the end of the car to which they have been fitted, and that has certainly been my experience, on both full size & RC vehicles.

Yes, the "force" on the outside wheel is increased, but in reality, what actually happens is the inside wheel lifts, reducing grip - fit a sway bar to the front of a vehicle that did not originally have one, and it will most likely result in understeer; fit a larger sway bar to the front of a vehicle originally fitted with one, and you will see an increase in understeer; in similar fashion, a sway bar (or larger sway bar) fitted to the rear of a vehicle increases oversteer - and you can "tune" the handling by changing the bars.

[fordem]

watermouse wrote:

The moose test.

If you have moose in your country leave the sway bar fitted.

Or "roos"?

This is actually very close to the reason I would not let my girls drive my car with the sway bar removed - any sudden unexpected swerve, regardless of reason, an animal, a kid running after a ball - in my case - water pooling along the edge of the road, can become tragic.

[30ONA]

fordem wrote:

30ONA wrote:

As For the grip. It Makes sense to me that if you can increase the force of the outside wheel onto the ground through the use of a sway bar you should have more grip. Two Wheels with a higher combined pressure on the road will produce more friction and hence more grip.

Have you actually tried this or just "thought it through"?

I believe the generally accepted position is that sway bars actually reduce grip at the end of the car to which they have been fitted, and that has certainly been my experience, on both full size & RC vehicles.

Yes, the "force" on the outside wheel is increased, but in reality, what actually happens is the inside wheel lifts, reducing grip - fit a sway bar to the front of a vehicle that did not originally have one, and it will most likely result in understeer; fit a larger sway bar to the front of a vehicle originally fitted with one, and you will see an increase in understeer; in similar fashion, a sway bar (or larger sway bar) fitted to the rear of a vehicle increases oversteer - and you can "tune" the handling by changing the bars.

No I have not removed one.

I'm Not trying to be argumentative I just can't grasp why you would remove a sway bar. The Manufacturers Do a lot of research and spend millions designing cars. But We know better? . The Sway bar has a purpose.

Or slow down or get a car more suited to doing 140km/h. A Jimmy is 4wd not a race car.

[fordem]

It can be difficult for people coming from a street/track background to grasp, but, the sway bar restricts articulation - it "ties" the front or rear wheels (depending on which end of the vehicle it is fitted to) together, so if one wheel lifts the other wheel lifts also - this can result in the loss of traction when off road, and that is the reason why removal is a popular modification on 4WD vehicles.

I have removed sway bars (temporarily) from vehicles, fitted sway bars to vehicles that did not have from the factory and played with different bar thickness to tune the handling - I've done this with both full size vehicles and RC cars, and I scared myself silly when I almost put my family under a truck driving a vehicle without the front bar fitted when I hit a pool of standing water with the right front wheel - this was a vehicle I was very familiar with, one with zero scrub radius steering, phenomenally stable under normal conditions, and the norm in the wet was, not to pull if it hit standing water, but that one front wheel would plane - you'd see the tach & speedo spike.

I'm not in favour of removing the sway bar from daily driven vehicles, and for every guy who says "I've done it", and the vehicle was no less stable (I think someone in this thread claims the Jimny is more stable without the sway bar), if they are within driving distance of me and would like a demonstration with their vehicle, I'll be happy to arrange one - it has nothing to do with high speed manoeuvers, we're not going to exceed 80 km/h, we're going to do it on a flat surface, no side slopes and there is a very high probability that he (or she) will lose control of the vehicle (I will not be driving - I will not even be in the vehicle) and quite possibly put it on the side, especially if it is tall and narrow - like a Carry van or a Jimny (I've lost count of how many Carry vans I've seen go over, including a couple at literally a walking pace in a parking lot).

Would I drive a vehicle with the sway bar removed - under specific conditions, yes, if it's an off road toy, yes - if it's a daily driver, I would prefer some form of disconnect - would I allow my wife or daughters to do so - NO!

[vet 180]

^^^ good post.

30ONA wrote:

fordem wrote:

30ONA wrote:

As For the grip. It Makes sense to me that if you can increase the force of the outside wheel onto the ground through the use of a sway bar you should have more grip. Two Wheels with a higher combined pressure on the road will produce more friction and hence more grip.

Have you actually tried this or just "thought it through"?

I believe the generally accepted position is that sway bars actually reduce grip at the end of the car to which they have been fitted, and that has certainly been my experience, on both full size & RC vehicles.

Yes, the "force" on the outside wheel is increased, but in reality, what actually happens is the inside wheel lifts, reducing grip - fit a sway bar to the front of a vehicle that did not originally have one, and it will most likely result in understeer; fit a larger sway bar to the front of a vehicle originally fitted with one, and you will see an increase in understeer; in similar fashion, a sway bar (or larger sway bar) fitted to the rear of a vehicle increases oversteer - and you can "tune" the handling by changing the bars.

No I have not removed one.

I'm Not trying to be argumentative I just can't grasp why you would remove a sway bar. The Manufacturers Do a lot of research and spend millions designing cars. But We know better? . The Sway bar has a purpose.

Or slow down or get a car more suited to doing 140km/h. A Jimmy is 4wd not a race car.

The reason would be to change the cars balance and get a little more articulation. The limits of grip are great, I do not want to change the limit off or on road, however I would like a little more oversteer especially off-road and a little more articulation would be nice also. Yes manufactures spend millions, although I doubt Suzuki did with the jimny , but that is to conform to a spec. That spec may not suit what we want.

Why do I need to slow down or get a car that will do 140kph better? The jimny does it just fine. It also quite fun to drive at those speeds unlike other cars I have owned "more suited to those speeds".

I guess I am looking for any excuse to not have to lay down on the 60deg ground to undo bolts after drive for a few hours on the highway to a spot.

[Gwagensteve]

30ONA wrote:

I'm Not trying to be argumentative I just can't grasp why you would remove a sway bar. The Manufacturers Do a lot of research and spend millions designing cars. But We know better? . The Sway bar has a purpose.

Others, including the OP have covered the reason why an owner might choose to remove the swaybar.

I'll provide some ideas about the old "manufacturers spend millions" line. I've used it myself in relation to certain topics over the years, but you're on very shaky ground using it in relation to a swaybar in a 4WD.

let's use Land Rover as an example, because they're a very good example of swaybars being tied to market perception, not engineering reality.

The Range Rover, when developed, ran no sway bars, and didn't until the early 1990's. That's 20 years. Range Rovers handle very well. They do, as a result of their suspension design, have significant body roll. Being designed in the 1960's when drivers were of higher quality than they are now, it was assumed that drivers would recognise they were in a high articulation vehicle with high mass, and manage the weight transfer accordingly.

In the early 1990's, Land Rover developed the Discovery, on the range rover platform. It also, as conceived, ran no swaybars, and 205R16 tyres, just like the Range Rover. However, in order to compete with the Japanese vehicles running 7" rims, Land Rover offered a "freestyle pack" which included 7" rims and wider tyres. Dry road adhesion was increased, so lateral loads increased, and now people were driving the car harder and complaining that their passengers were getting motion sickness, so Land Rover were forced to fit swaybars. I believe for a while if you ordered the freestyle pack you got swaybars, if you didn't, there were none. Which is "critical" - the 7 rims and shiny alloys, or the swaybars? Alternatively, is it poor driving to hack a 2 tonne 4WD around like a small hatchback so it's bobbing around like a boat in a swell? You don't drive a road car like a truck, why try to drive a truck like a road car?

Early Range Rovers, Discovery's and Defenders with no swaybars drive beautifully and feel completely unlike a Japanese 4WD of the era. Once the bars went on, they ended up with the same fidgety, understeery feel as everything else. But the market demanded 7" rims, so that's what came with it.

Using suzuki as an example, The early SWB 1.0 Sierra had no swaybar. The 1.0 LWB Styleside had a rear swaybar, but the tray back didn't. When the 1.3 came out, a front swaybar was fitted, but the rear swaybar was removed from the LWB model. The general level of driver ignorance in the US demanded that the front swaybar be uprated for the widetrack model, despite it having a LOWER centre of gravity than the original, swaybarless 1.0 sierra. Once again, the use of swaybars was driven by market perception of what a car should feel like. We have GM to thank mostly for that*


*I say this because at some point in the darkest corners of the late 1960's, GM's lawyers delivered an edict to engineering that every car GM sold should be able to safety execute a "J turn" - drive along at a set speed on dry tarmac and throw the wheel instantly to full lock without changing speed. This was determined to be a epitome of safety - a car so inert it would just plow ahead in a haze of tyre smoke. The millions of cars built to this specification through the 60's, 70' and 80's are what in my opinion has eroded driving skill to the point that a car with steering feel and front end grip is now almost impossible to find. By the late 1970's, a coup was staged within GM in Australia and the handling of the HZ kingswood was restored with what was referred to as "Radial Tuned Suspension" - (The "J turn" test was abandoned)- this was never done in the US, where cars ploughed on (pun intended) with dreadful understeer forever.

So, in fact, there are a many cars which turn in and behave better without a front swaybar, because front grip is increased. My Mercedes Gwagen was one of them. Obviously, so are land rovers, and I prefer the feel of Sierras the way they were engineered - with no front swaybar. These are my personal experiences. Whilst my Renaultsport Clio had a front swaybar, it was very soft and the car had massive front end grip - it rolled and felt totally french but was incredibly quick and assured. I replaced it with a R50 Mini Cooper S - the complete opposite - very high front roll stiffness, and despite having the same numerical performance and a much bigger tyre, couldn't go around a corner without relying on traction/stability control, so heavily was front end traction reduced by the high roll stiffness.

Obviously, not all cars will improve with the bar removed, and some may well become dangerous, but in the case of live axle 4WD's, the front suspension design generally has high enough roll stiffness that the swaybar isn't required. (the exception being the Jeep 5 link)

So anyway, don't always assume the engineers had a free hand to make the best car possible. There might be many reasons a swaybar is fitted and there's no guarantee a car will become "dangerous" with one removed, or safer with one fitted.

[Kor3y101]

To add to this with no technical expertise in the area;

If it makes any difference, my wife only has an automatic license, she is learning to drive a manual in my Jimny which has no sway bar. She knows it is a 4x4, and drives it like a 4x4. She takes corners slower then we would in her CRV (which is a whole different story again!) She is aware that it has high front end stiffness and doesn't for a second think she can hoon around in it.

But what she does do is, Maintain all normal speed limits without issues or feeling uneasy, keep up with traffic doing 110KPH on the highway without worrying about swerving off the road, drive it how it was meant to be driven.

She feels more comfortable driving my Jimny then she ever did driving my Mazda 3 MPS which had upgraded (thicker) sway bars that was more then capable of cruising down the highway at 160kph. It felt very planted to the ground but she didn't like how little feel there was in the steering and suspension (and the power)

Was probably just a ramble, but that's my 2c.

Honestly, take it off and drive it like a 4x4, which I'm sure you do.

[shep]

fordem wrote:

watermouse wrote:

The moose test.

If you have moose in your country leave the sway bar fitted.

Or "roos"?

This is actually very close to the reason I would not let my girls drive my car with the sway bar removed - any sudden unexpected swerve, regardless of reason, an animal, a kid running after a ball - in my case - water pooling along the edge of the road, can become tragic.

Anyone that swerves for Roos is gunna eventually hit a tree. I don't serve for any animals in aust and I get off the brake peddle before impact.
Seen lots of cars hit trees after swerving for little animals.

[sideways]

I was going to post at the start but didn't want the drama, so here I am now that there is dramatic posts and strong opinions! Here's a copy and paste of what I had.

I disconnected it a number of times for curiosity on my 100% stock Jimny, I never needed the extra offroad performance. It was a little more oversteery (on gravel) but ultimately IMO the handling was safer (on gravel), the car was less jittery, tracked better, cornered faster and rode better. Unless under brakes it never understeered either way. It's worth noting I had shitty tyres at the time and when I put new ones on the car was FAR less oversteery and pulled much better traction on gravel (never tried it with the new tyres and sway bar out). For normal driving body roll was no different but there was certainly a difference in an "elk test" type swerve. It wasn't a massive "zomg we're going to die" difference but it was there.

It's a very minor handling change that 99.9% of drivers wouldn't even pick but that's because they don't do elk test type maneuvers every day and IMO that's why Suzuki fitted the sway bar in the first place. It's emergency maneuvers when you want one, no one cares for normal driving.

I'd certainly let my GF drive it but I'd tell her what's up, it's her choice I'm not god or anything. It still handles way better and is 100x safer than anything she drives at work.

I never tried it offroad with the Jimny but one of the pins/links fell out of my Landcruisers sway bar and I'm really liking how much more compliant and balanced it is offroad, not even so much in hardcore stuff but just things like beach tracks and so on, it just pulls traction better than before and has a nicer "feel" to it. The swaybar doesn't even hold up suspension travel one inch (I'd tried disconnecting it before) but it effects the balance.

[shep]

Sideways I was stunned how badly my jimny was on gravel roads when stock. Driving in high range 4WD transforms the way they drive on gravel.

[vet 180]

So I tested this out earlier this week. Just disconnected and drove on-road and a tiny bit on some sand/dirt. I also wanted to let the wife drive with me in the car to see how she felt.

I took it pretty easy as I was unfamiliar with the car in its current condition, I really need more time with it to fully understand the changes in car behavior.. So far though I can say the car is far more balanced on and off-road. At the limits of grip it now 4 wheel slides instead of feeling like driving in the snow with snow tires on the back and normal road tires on the front. On corner entry you really feel the weight transfer. i.e. If you are turning right you feel the weight transfer onto the front left wheel and the back right get a little light. Fast corners i.e. 100+kph you have have to be careful with mid corner corrections as the weight of the car pivots around a lot more.

At slower speeds my wife liked a lot more, but at the highway speeds she felt a little sketchy with the "i'll go to change lanes then realize there is a car there test".

Taking speed bumps with one wheel only on the bump is barley noticeable now, where before it would still jar your spine.

I have taken it off completely as I plan to head out this weekend, and put the car through its paces with it off. I will re-attach it during the week to make the wife feel more comfortable.

I really think with a good pair of shocks I wouldn't ever return it. Time to start saving maybe or figure out how to make a quick release that doesn't bang and clang