[Marko_SJ]

Just buy a Pre-Runner (in the USA, is this as controversial term as "Tough Tourer" to Aus??? ).

[vet 180]

Gwagensteve wrote:

To be honest, I think there's a number of things going on here unconnected to the seatbelt.

1: The seats offer inadequate support
2: The vehicle has insufficient wheel travel for the desired speed of travel
3: The vehicle has insufficient traction to slow down
4: Because racecar yo
5: There might be a little bit of driver inexperience going on.

I say this because all of these things are open to negotiation, but removing the seatbelt so you aren't restricted when flailing about in the cabin isn't one of them. I am aware what a difference a good seat can make. I have 7 quality aftermarket seats at home that have been or are going into my cars.

The faster you want (or need) to go the more of 1 and 2 you need. If you are trying to drive as slowly as possible and it's still a problem you need more 3. If you want more 4 you need more 1 and 2. If the problem is #5 then you need to spend more time with others in comparable vehicles to lean techniques and lines.

Note that actually increasing wheel travel in a road driven vehicle is very difficult without significant fabrication.

1. 100% yes, but that wont change
2. Yes a little, but not enough to do drastic changes. Minor will happen though.
3. No
4. No
5. You never rule it out
6. The OP need to harden up and change his habit that is many years ingrained. There is an element of this feels weird as it's not what I am used to going on.

The bulldog clip will help a lot I am sure as when I have tried to wear I find myself holding it out just a couple fingers to stop it locking and unlocking against my chest and I am fine, but that is not sustainable as I drive with 2 hands on the wheel. When I have owned fixed belt cars in the past I found I did wear as it wasn't an issue

[alien]

I also like to sit forward out of the seat, so the seat sides aren't throwing me around so much and i can use my core to stabilise my upper body and absorb bumps coming up through the seat - i even do this when flogging through a carpark with speed bumps.

I think the jarring you refer to is totally normal (through the seatbelt) - but given i'm already leaning forward a bit, the times the belt is jarring me is stopping me moving too far forward to safely operate the steering wheel, so i see it as a plus.

[bumstein]

Depends... 4wding yes usually. Offroad (ie station tracks etc) no, never.

I'm fully aware of the risks and choose to accept them. One day I'll explain my thoughts on risk and human behaviour

[bogga]

I reckon your just plain fucking stupid not wearing a seatbelt.

I tape them so they dont retract. Don't start driving till belt is on inc passenger.

[bumstein]

bogga wrote:

I reckon your just plain fucking stupid not wearing a seatbelt.

Your entitled to think whatever you like

[crf529]

In this case the truth. Indisputable truth.

[greenzook89]

bogga wrote:

Don't start driving till belt is on inc passenger.

This! I have had passengers who haven't buckled up straight away. Usually these people have never seen the consequences of something going wrong offroad.

[bogga]

bumstein wrote:

Depends... 4wding yes usually. Offroad (ie station tracks etc) no, never.

There should be no exeption. Consistency creates habit.

I had a mate earlier this year who put his lux on its roof driving a flat station track at a moderate speed. There was a very deep hole on the edge of the track he did not see until the last second. We still can't believe he put it over where he did. Seatbelt kept him in his seat.

[tanshi]

Yep no exceptions. You are a representative of the 4x4 community. It only takes some one to take your lead and die because of it

[bumstein]

You can dispute all you like... but I make the decisions that I wish to make. You can disagree with me all you like but again I say I I'm fully aware of what risks I'm taking.

Here's the thing dudes, your opinion may differ from mine but it doesn't make you ultimately right and it doesn't make me definitively wrong. It just means we differ in opinion here.

I put it to all that one needs to understand the risks one takes and mitigate them or accept the risks. Not talking about perceived risks but actual risks!!! This is where my theory on risk and human behaviour comes into play. But I won't go into great detail here, it's too big a discussion and I can't be ass'd.

Although, if I were to vigilantly tell everyone here that they are 'plain fucking stupid' coz they take Sierra's offroad, this would be opinion and not indisputable fact. CRF529, you should learn the difference between the two terms.

See, it is an indisputable fact that Sierra's do not have the same level of safety as say a 2016 model Landcruiser, patrol, something with sophisticated safety design and airbags etc. Do you bogga ONLY drive vehicles with the latest safety design and features when offroad?

If your answer to the above question is no, by your very token of logic I can easily take your moral high road and call you fuckin stupid!! But alas, it's your decision to make.

Tanshi, you provide a good point. Lead by example! Good thinkin pal! When I'm on station tracks there is usually either only myself in the car, or the station owners. This isn't the sotuation where my example will influence someone influential.

Wearing a seatbelt is my decision to make. Unless I'm on public gazetted roads, then it's mandatory under the road traffic code.

Now, greenzook89, you mention exposure to the the 'consequences' of something going wrong offroad. In reply, I'm a Paramedic and have been for many many years. You didn't infer directly that I am ignorant to the consequences, however I put it to all that I have EVERY knowledge of what consequences are and have seen them first hand in more situations than nearly anyone here. Few will see it as first hand as I have.

I have an intricate knowledge of the risks I take. Some risks I decide to mitigate by wearing a seatbelt offroad. Some I decide not to. Free will and the fact I drive millions of station km's where law does not dictate that it is mandatory, and do not wear a seat belt is
1. My choice to make,
2. not for you to judge, and
3. perfectly acceptable. I don't advocate it to others but make this choice for myself

Any opinions on this after these facts are solely yours and fine to have. But flame me for them? Not your place mate. Express them, I bear no issue with than. But call me or others fucking stupid? Then you sir, have an issue an issue I don't share.

Now on a side note, I've seen this kind of flaming pop up here and there recently. The topic is called 'Do you wear your seatbelt when driving offroad', and by this it does not infer that everyone who posts has to agree with the norm. Discussion is highly encouraged and productive but flaming someone for an opinion that does not align with yours is not. Time to be adult!

[crf529]

You're talking in circles around things that weren't in discussion.

How many injuries and deaths are attributable to wearing a seat belt? You may choose not to wear one, but just because it's your choice doesn't mean it isn't monumentally stupid.

Secondly if you post it in a public online forum, I am entitled to judge. You confuse opinion and fact like it's going out of fashion.

You want to use your power of free will? Don't wear a seatbelt, but don't come on this forum making a 'personal' case for it then turning bleeding heart when you get jumped on.

[Marko_SJ]

I still think Jimnys should be replaced with pre runners or trophy trucks.

Then they will have the suspension travel to hit things fast, like dirtbikes.

[BlueSuzy]

bumstein wrote:

You can dispute all you like... but I make the decisions that I wish to make. You can disagree with me all you like but again I say I I'm fully aware of what risks I'm taking.

Here's the thing dudes, your opinion may differ from mine but it doesn't make you ultimately right and it doesn't make me definitively wrong. It just means we differ in opinion here.

I put it to all that one needs to understand the risks one takes and mitigate them or accept the risks. Not talking about perceived risks but actual risks!!! This is where my theory on risk and human behaviour comes into play. But I won't go into great detail here, it's too big a discussion and I can't be ass'd.

Although, if I were to vigilantly tell everyone here that they are 'plain fucking stupid' coz they take Sierra's offroad, this would be opinion and not indisputable fact. CRF529, you should learn the difference between the two terms.

See, it is an indisputable fact that Sierra's do not have the same level of safety as say a 2016 model Landcruiser, patrol, something with sophisticated safety design and airbags etc. Do you bogga ONLY drive vehicles with the latest safety design and features when offroad?

If your answer to the above question is no, by your very token of logic I can easily take your moral high road and call you fuckin stupid!! But alas, it's your decision to make.

Tanshi, you provide a good point. Lead by example! Good thinkin pal! When I'm on station tracks there is usually either only myself in the car, or the station owners. This isn't the sotuation where my example will influence someone influential.

Wearing a seatbelt is my decision to make. Unless I'm on public gazetted roads, then it's mandatory under the road traffic code.

Now, greenzook89, you mention exposure to the the 'consequences' of something going wrong offroad. In reply, I'm a Paramedic and have been for many many years. You didn't infer directly that I am ignorant to the consequences, however I put it to all that I have EVERY knowledge of what consequences are and have seen them first hand in more situations than nearly anyone here. Few will see it as first hand as I have.

I have an intricate knowledge of the risks I take. Some risks I decide to mitigate by wearing a seatbelt offroad. Some I decide not to. Free will and the fact I drive millions of station km's where law does not dictate that it is mandatory, and do not wear a seat belt is
1. My choice to make,
2. not for you to judge, and
3. perfectly acceptable. I don't advocate it to others but make this choice for myself

Any opinions on this after these facts are solely yours and fine to have. But flame me for them? Not your place mate. Express them, I bear no issue with than. But call me or others fucking stupid? Then you sir, have an issue an issue I don't share.

Now on a side note, I've seen this kind of flaming pop up here and there recently. The topic is called 'Do you wear your seatbelt when driving offroad', and by this it does not infer that everyone who posts has to agree with the norm. Discussion is highly encouraged and productive but flaming someone for an opinion that does not align with yours is not. Time to be adult!

Longest post ever.

You asked, you got flamed. Maybe wear a belt so you're not your next patient.


Bye.

[31zook]

Haha

EDIT: The idea that people can decide whats right for them and whats correct is stupid. At some point you asked for others opinions and it came. And it wasn't the same as yours. This isn't Aboriginal rights to vote, or women being allowed in parliament. No matter how you cut it not wearing your seat belt is more dangerous then wearing it. That. Is. Right.

[greenzook89]

At the end of the day you have a duty of care to yourself and others, whether the law requires it on the track or not, its best practice to wear it. Forensic history has proven this. So if someone decides not to wear their belt for whatever reason. Thats their decision. I know I'd feel shitty if something happened and my wife/passenger was injured because they didnt have their belt on.

[Marko_SJ]

bumstein wrote:

Now on a side note, I've seen this kind of flaming pop up here and there recently. The topic is called 'Do you wear your seatbelt when driving offroad', and by this it does not infer that everyone who posts has to agree with the norm. Discussion is highly encouraged and productive but flaming someone for an opinion that does not align with yours is not. Time to be adult!

Haha the bandwagon is strong here and it seems its the same ones most times.

I choose to wear a belt but I agree with your sentiments in general. FWIW, I'll always argue that it shouldn't be a legal requirement to wear a helmet on a motorcycle (mainly to be contrarian but I think its incredible how many people NEED the government to tell them that and a threat of punishment if they don't).

[bogga]

I didn't mean to come across like I was personally attacking someone by what I said. Maybe in hindsight I should have worded my opinion in a way that seemed less offensive.

I reckon IT'S just plain fucking stupid not wearing a seatbelt.

Anyway I don't normally get involved with this sort of discussion, I'm to old and would rather play catch with my goldfish.

[bumstein]

bogga wrote:

I didn't mean to come across like I was personally attacking someone by what I said. Maybe in hindsight I should have worded my opinion in a way that seemed less offensive.

Duly noted mate!

Marko seems to have got the drift of what I was saying. Others seem to be so blinded by their own short sightedness that even if I were to argue the toss it would be falling on numb ears.

31zook and greenzook, I've already addressed your perspectives in my post. Mine differ to yours.

Bluesuzy. Flaming, in my opinion, is not ok. I didn't ask, I responded to the idea question the OP posted. Again, opinions to mine differ and I get that. But personal attacks are not in the theme here. Face palm reading your response.

Time to go and buy a goldfish!! Catch sounds like a grand idea right now!!! Haha

.

[Gwagensteve]

This is a very interesting moral/ethical area.

Yes, based on the evidence of injury rates from not wearing seatbelt, Bumstien, you're stupid. Your belief you understand the risks better than others because of your previous experience is quite interesting. Maybe your job has desensitised you. The stories of close calls in this thread obviously aren't compelling enough.

Quote:

This isn't the situation where my example will influence someone influential.

is completely fascinating, I think places you in an interesting ethical position. Does that mean if you were gong to influence someone you'd influence them to wear a belt? That's some pretty interesting reasoning. Does that mean you think you're better at assessing risk than them, or you don't want to see them get hurt?
We see this double standard all the time in safety culture. You'll make your kids wear all the PPE whilst wearing none yourself. You'll only let the kids have a 4 cylinder hatchback but your first car was a V8 falcon and you ripped skids all over the place.

However, that's not even what is interesting about this. The idea that you're immune from being flamed for a (demonstrably and factually stupid) opinion just because it's your opinion is pretty interesting. Not all opinions are equal. Not all opinions are worthy of equal weight. Applying some noble "you can't stop me from having any opinion I like" idea is fine - so long as it's just an opinion. It's not though, it's an opinion turned into an action. An action that greatly increases the risk of a loved one pushing your dribbling body around in a wheelchair for the rest of your life. That's an active choice to increase risk.

I might have the opinion that all redheaded children should be drowned at birth. I could become incensed if anyone flames me for this opinion because I'm entitled to my opinion just as you are yours. But it's an intellectual argument only until I start drowning redheaded children. Then it's an action, and actions are judged a bit more harshly than opinions.

Would you bolt a steel spike into the middle of your steering wheel? Why not? Because it would be stupid? Because of the risk? How would your family view your new steering wheel accessory? Would anyone be entitled to the opinion that it's a stupid thing to do? Would you expect to be flamed? It's not so different.

I reckon you were taught to not wear a seatbelt by someone at least one, probably two generations older than you. From a time when drink driving was fine so long as you made it home, and the road toll was about 12 times higher than it is now. Frankly, someone from a different age.

[vet 180]

Marko_SJ wrote:

I still think Jimnys should be replaced with pre runners or trophy trucks.

Then they will have the suspension travel to hit things fast, like dirtbikes.

HAHA

I have actually driven something similar as well as big power sand dragsters. Bit of a different kettle of fish.

[Marko_SJ]

vet 180 wrote:

Marko_SJ wrote:

I still think Jimnys should be replaced with pre runners or trophy trucks.

Then they will have the suspension travel to hit things fast, like dirtbikes.

HAHA

I have actually driven something similar as well as big power sand dragsters. Bit of a different kettle of fish.

I'm jealous.

For sure a different kettle of fish and I cant see how dirtbikes relate to Jimnys.

[vet 180]

Marko_SJ wrote:

vet 180 wrote:

Marko_SJ wrote:

For sure a different kettle of fish and I cant see how dirtbikes relate to Jimnys.

Haven't actually done any dirt bike riding here. A little on the quads, but only a couple times with crap quads.

I really have to get out on one.

[Marko_SJ]

vet 180 wrote:

Marko_SJ wrote:

vet 180 wrote:

Marko_SJ wrote:

For sure a different kettle of fish and I cant see how dirtbikes relate to Jimnys.

Haven't actually done any dirt bike riding here. A little on the quads, but only a couple times with crap quads.

I really have to get out on one.

I've never ridden dunes. I reckon you'd be in for a ball if you could find a powered up 450.

[31zook]

Well said steve

[alien]

Yep, Steve's post was bang on

[MrRocky]

Haha any smokers, same can be said of opinions and choices of wearing seatbelts.
Im sure everyone has taken there belt off in a procarious position offroad in a sierra, cant take the moral high ground when stuck unable to drive or breath in your seat, no you simply unbelt your belt assess the risk, curse when u cant get the belt back on and then make a conscious choice to drive the obstacle or sit there staring at your car then drive it beltless anyway.
If your actions affect no one but yourself then do what you please on your own terms

[MrRocky]

*just had work xmas do the above may not make sense

[Gwagensteve]

Except that continuing to smoke, even once you understand the risks fully, isn't completely voluntary - It's quite difficult to stop due to the effect of addiction. That's not the case for seatbelt wearing.

[bumstein]

Steve, your either being deliberately inflammatory or your gloriously uneducated!!

Either way I'm not inclined to respond to such ridiculous antagonism. As a result I'm forming opinions of you which are less than auspicious, however I choose not to voice them here. That is neither productive, nor in the theme of AZ and the topic. Personal attacks and name calling are very childish.