[telemeister]

It looks like it will be pretty impossible to buy a new Jimny for the foreseeable future (at least in QLD dealers are saying they are no longer selling them.)

Therefore I'm looking at buying a recent used model. There are a fair few 2013 models around. I seem to recall that one thing
that came in after that was Electronic Stability Control (2014 or 2015?) and Electronic Traction Control.

Do these things make much practical difference to a normal user. If I buy a 2013 model without these am I missing something important?

Thanks in advance.

Steve

[squibby]

Jimny = 84 claimed horsepower (If you are lucky) minus greater than average losses in the transmission compared to say a front wheel drive car for example, all means not very much power at the rear wheels. You are missing out on nothing by not having the electronic aids imo. Go buy the best deal.

Besides, if you are particularly crap at driving, you can mitigate some of the disadvantages of not having the electronic aids by putting it in 4x4 on any slippy surfaces (dirt roads, drenched roads, ice). All the best

[Gwagensteve]

I think that misrepresents the function of ESP. ESP has nothing to do with power and everything to do with countering the effect of a vehicle with a high COG, short wheelbase and little mechanical grip.

I can't make the decision for you but if you intend to keep the car fairly standard and drive it daily I think I'd recommend ESP.

[squibby]

Don't be turning this into a crappo thread GwagenSteve, power IS a factor. You ignored the question for two weeks and then can't help posting the opposite of what someone else posts for kicks. Practically all modern ESP's include cutting power these days, I am taking an educated punt that Suzuki's is no different. If I'm wrong I will gladly eat the pie of humility.

Anyway, listen to GwagenSteve he is correct as usual about the rest and certainly consider that there is a whole lot more to ESP than intervening when there is an excess of power, particularly mid corner, but in my opinion oversteer is the most dangerous situation that ESP intervenes with in the real world, and I don't think the Jimny is overly prone to it due to it's lack of power, not when I was driving one anyway. You said you are a normal user drive it normally, buy the best deal, ESP or no ESP and don't drive it like a tool. That's still my advice. I believe they only installed ESP due to ever improving mandatory design rules, and obviously ESP saves lives much like ABS does. That said there is a way to drive where you don't really need electronic aids. You insurance might be cheaper on the ESP models, worth considering that too as a factor.

[Gwagensteve]

Well you waited two weeks to supply misleading (at best) information.

It's called electronic STABILITY control. A jimny is a relatively unstable vehicle. The point of esp to to correct a slide and return the vehicle to its intended direction of travel. This applies to unintended understeer as much as it applies to intended oversteer. My personal experience of ESP is that it can be obtrusive if you're driving aggressively but it can be incredibly effective when you're not and due to unexpected road conditions etc you find yourself in a big understeer situation. And let's be honest, all the safety features in modern vehicles are there because unintended things happen on the road.

Yes, it may cut power. But it also applies brakes individually.

To claim you are missing "nothing" by not having it is either poor judgment or ignorance. It looks like the latter considering you think for some reason it has little effect in low power vehicles.

The only reason I could see for avoiding it is if the vehicle was to be substantially modified which would likely interfere with its function, which might indeed make it pointless.

[Gwagensteve]

Oh, just to add I thought ESP was nonsense until I felt it actually work- wet, pot holes and off camber intersection. Turned in and immediately the front pushed really wide- I wasn't hard on the throttle or anything- front grip just vanished. Light flashed and the understeer disappeared- the car corrected its line.

This was in a car with terrible mechanical grip and very intrusive traction control. (R50 Mini Cooper S) I don't like traction control, but in the name of the "mini feel" BMW engineered out mechanical grip so the car needed the TC. I point this out to highlight the relationship between traction control, ESP and power.

[steak_knife]

X2 on Mr G

[alien]

I agree - also, these systems offroad CAN be engineered to work a little like lockers in delivering power to the wheel with most grip. I don't believe the jimny does this, but my mate's DMax absolutely shines offroad due to it's traction control system.

I have had the 'cutting power' issue in a Golf GTI - taking off and turning across 2 lanes of traffic, wheels spin, power cuts and you're left lingering in the middle of the road waiting for it to crawl forwards. Scary. But once i learned how it behaved it wasn't such an issue, and if i was planning on flooring it i'd turn ESP off.

[Gwagensteve]

You need to be very sure that iit was ESP that was cutting power and not purely traction control through. The mini was an interesting case. I could get the car to very gently understeer under constant throttle and constant corner radius. It was kind of "smudging" the front end across the road. The esp couldn't detect this and as both wheels were turning stage same speed, the TC couldn't see it either.

However, if I tipped in with any throttle at that point, the TC would freak out, grab the brake on the spinning inside tyre (remember both tyres were at the limit of their grip when I applied throttle) which would then push the outside tyre towards dramatic understeer and the TC would shut the whole party down. I can't isolate which system was doing what at that point but the problem started with the traction control.

I experimented with the TC off (I don't believe this disabled ESP) but the outcome wasn't better- progress was scrappy and slower due to masses of wheel spin.

As I pointed out though- yes, these systems can be intrusive when you are being deliberately aggressive. That's not what they are there for.

My next road car will have adjustable parameters for TC and ESP, which will be interesting to understand the relationship between the systems.

[pete_79]

ESP is an absolute pain in the ass if your driving in sand.

The computer knows better then you and will do everything possible to make sure you get bogged in soft sand. That's it's job.

For daily driving on bitumen it's probably ok. For any driving in soft sand you will curse it endlessly and you will want to cut every wire that is telling the computer there is something wrong and wants to make you slow down and get bogged.

[Gwagensteve]

I don't doubt it for a moment. Much like ABS off road.

[henno]

Absolutely. Every single car that is designed to ever go offroad should have at the very least a switch to disable ESP (and ABS) as soon as you hit the sand. It's the worst.

[vet 180]

henno wrote:

Absolutely. Every single car that is designed to ever go offroad should have at the very least a switch to disable ESP (and ABS) as soon as you hit the sand. It's the worst.

A lot of cars (JK Wrangler springs to mind) still suck even with it off as it is never totally off unless you have a car you can pull the fuse.

It may suck in sand but in the rocks or trails it's really good.

To the OP, get the best value vehicle and with the money saved throw in a locker.

[Gwagensteve]

I don't want to railroad this conversation at all, but I think we're interchanging ESP and traction control in this discussion. They're not the same thing at all. Whilst they use the same functions to achieve their outcomes, esp is a lot more complex

There's also a lot of scope for manufacturers to tune the response. Not all systems, even with the same hardware, will work the same. From what I've seen the Japanese tend to be super conservative with their calibrations.

[qwerty123]

If it were me.
daily driver + Jimny = Must have ESP no questions asked

I drive a dual cab BT50 Daily and it is a godsend to have ESP in the wet. It Never bothers me in the Dry. You have to be driving like a real moron to get it to Kick in. Honestly if your battling with ESP on a daily basis you should have a real hard look at yourself.

In my opinion any car especially with live axle('s) & High Cog. In the wet on hilly twisty roads it WILL save your life or someone Else's.

In regards to off roading.
in the RG Colorados, once in Low range. No ABS, No ESP, No traction control at all.
interesting about the DMAX.

[vet 180]

qwerty123 wrote:

If it were me.
daily driver + Jimny = Must have ESP no questions asked

I drive a dual cab BT50 Daily and it is a godsend to have ESP in the wet. It Never bothers me in the Dry. You have to be driving like a real moron to get it to Kick in. Honestly if your battling with ESP on a daily basis you should have a real hard look at yourself.

In my opinion any car especially with live axle('s) & High Cog. In the wet on hilly twisty roads it WILL save your life or someone Else's.

TBH I couldn't disagree more with this. You statement just suggest people don't know how to drive anymore and need the car to do it for them, that's a problem within itself.

IMO you have to be driving like a real moron to not adjust your speed to the conditions of the road surface. If you need ESP to do it for you, you should have a real hard look at yourself.

[Gwagensteve]

So where do you stand on ABS? Happy you can threshold brake in an emergency?

[qwerty123]

TBH I couldn't disagree more with this. You statement just suggest people don't know how to drive anymore and need the car to do it for them, that's a problem within itself.

IMO you have to be driving like a real moron to not adjust your speed to the conditions of the road surface. If you need ESP to do it for you, you should have a real hard look at yourself.[/quote]


I don't think you quite understand.

no one need's ESP to drive their car for them as they should be driving to the conditions of the road i agree.

Its in emergency situations where you have to swerve or there's oil on the road around a blind corner. something along those lines it could be anything.

you can have a little more peace of mind knowing that your less likely to be sent off the road or kill someone or even the other way round and have someone sideways coming straight for you completely out of control.

so i don't understand how anyone can disagree to this.

john citizen is not a professional rally driver therefore i am much more confident on the road knowing more and more cars on the road have this technology implemented for my safety and for others.

[vet 180]

qwerty123 wrote:

TBH I couldn't disagree more with this. You statement just suggest people don't know how to drive anymore and need the car to do it for them, that's a problem within itself.

IMO you have to be driving like a real moron to not adjust your speed to the conditions of the road surface. If you need ESP to do it for you, you should have a real hard look at yourself.

I don't think you quite understand.

no one need's ESP to drive their car for them as they should be driving to the conditions of the road i agree.

Its in emergency situations where you have to swerve or there's oil on the road around a blind corner. something along those lines it could be anything.

you can have a little more peace of mind knowing that your less likely to be sent off the road or kill someone or even the other way round and have someone sideways coming straight for you completely out of control.

so i don't understand how anyone can disagree to this.

john citizen is not a professional rally driver therefore i am much more confident on the road knowing more and more cars on the road have this technology implemented for my safety and for others.[/quote]


Ah when you put it that way I retract my disagreement.

[squibby]

This thead has enlightened me somewhat. I reckon if you have to ask about whether you are missing out on esp, or you are recommending it for yourself, then probably for everybody else on the roads sake YES you should have esp. I'm happy to steer into an unforseen skid and modulate my steering and braking accordingly to regain control- dont need esp.

[Gwagensteve]

So I'll ask you the question. Are you 100% confident you can threshold brake in an emergency stop situation?

[squibby]

I prefere ABS because I prefere to be lazy on the brakes. Definatly prefere to just stomp in the emergency stop situation.... in a car anyway. Prefere no ABS on the bikes.

[alien]

Gwagensteve wrote:

So I'll ask you the question. Are you 100% confident you can threshold brake in an emergency stop situation?

Anyone that answers yes to this is 100% bullshit lying and should have their licence revoked.

I practiced almost an infinite number of times to pulse brake my sierra, and twice i've been in an emergency situation where i just stomped the pedal instead. One of those two i rear ended the bloke who's ABS brought him to a stop MILES before i was ever going to.

[Gwagensteve]

Which is exactly my point. Stability control is there for when things don't go to plan. People get so convinced that this stuff is anti-driving, which has nothing to do with it. You're unlikely to ever feel it work and if you do you'll probably think it was you being an awesome driver that got you out of the mess.

It's like the attitude to pollution control- apparently it's no good for power yet cars are more powerful (and more efficient) than they have ever been.

[shep]

Abs is horrible, I would prefer to not have it at all so that I can actually stop when driving on low traction surfaces.

[Gwagensteve]

Abs is horrible on low traction surfaces and should switch out when a centre diff is locked or the car is in 4wd.

On bitumen it's invaluable and when well tuned it's really impressive.
The Bosch setup in my 2005 STI was awesome.

[squibby]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Which is exactly my point. Stability control is there for when things don't go to plan. People get so convinced that this stuff is anti-driving, which has nothing to do with it. You're unlikely to ever feel it work and if you do you'll probably think it was you being an awesome driver that got you out of the mess.

It's like the attitude to pollution control- apparently it's no good for power yet cars are more powerful (and more efficient) than they have ever been.

Oh C'mon? ... I stripped every last bit of pollution control off my track bike because on the whole they ARE no good for power. It's now lighter and more powerful. It's not an attitude, it's a fact. The big power on the modern machines isn't any thanks to things like EGR and Cat convertors etc, it's In SPITE of these things.

Anyway, it's a driving aids thread now. By all means continue wittering on all, bit I think I'd like to know, is HOW does the JIMNY affected by it. Can it be switched off for off road? Or is it Better off road with it on? On road, all I can say is I had a Jimny without ESP and never needed it, not even close. I don't have an anti-driving attitude to driving aids.

[shep]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Abs is horrible on low traction surfaces and should switch out when a centre diff is locked or the car is in 4wd.

On bitumen it's invaluable and when well tuned it's really impressive.
The Bosch setup in my 2005 STI was awesome.

Should but doesn't on any car I can think of, certainly doesn't on the 3 I drive. Only my challenger disables esp etc but only with diff locks locked so the acronym's can't work anyway

[steak_knife]

shep wrote:

Abs is horrible, I would prefer to not have it at all so that I can actually stop when driving on low traction surfaces.

That's what baby Jebus invented tree's for...

I loved the abs, till a big stick ripped the harness out...

As to ESP I'm still with MrG..

Unless you have worked on em it would be hard to understand the complexity.

[Spool]

Getting back to Telemeister - I've been too busy with work of late but I've been meaning to ask my preferred vehicle importer if we are able to import brand new/near new Sierras (specifically JB23 I was looking at) next year when vehicle importation rules change.
660cc turbs would be a giggle, even despite the track decrease. They do sell the 1.3 widebody in Japan anyway and with way more factory options then we see.

Edit - added link

https://ucar.carview.yahoo.co.jp/model/ ... page=1#mnc

Just over 17g plus freight, government fees and any compliance work the government adds to the upcoming legislation.