[crf529]

I’m looking to build myself a low and slow, big-ish tire LWB Sierra as soon as I have the garage space for it. However idle time aggravates me and I’m thinking now of potentially starting with a rolling chassis (which I may have space for) and doing the RUF, G16B swap and all that kind of prep first. Before later either sourcing a body, or a complete car and swapping the body over.

Just wondering if anyone has any input on why this might not be a good idea or any gotchas to be aware of?

[bumstein]

crf529 wrote:

Just wondering if anyone has any input on why this might not be a good idea or any gotchas to be aware of?

You want us to talk you out of it? Haha [emoji38] Nah go for it!!

Really it depends on what you want to get out of it..

Beware that it will likely take a lot longer than you think and probably cost more too, unless you’ve got some good experience doing the work. It’s also easy to spend much more on the car than it’s relative value. I say relative value because it may be the case that it’s value to you is much greater than the price you could sell it for, that’s entirely your call.

You haven’t really said what your hoping to achieve or what you already have.

Do you want to build a schmick resto’d car, a daily driver, a great camping/travel setup or a car to trailer out to the rough tracks on the weekend?

Do you already have the rolling chassis or a running LWB with a ratshit body?

My advice is have a very clear picture in your mind on what you want the vehicle to end up being. How far you want to go and what your willing to spend on getting it there. Until you can narrow down what your hoping to achieve any feedback we can give you is unlikely to help you achieve your ideal build.

[crf529]

I’d rather be talked out of a bad idea into a better one than bullishly pursue something haha.

I’m starting from nothing. I have a new Jimny but want a semi serious rig. I have no experience, I am not particularly dull but I am a very keen learner in this space.

I don’t want a full resto but I do want something that can be occasionally driven to work, occasionally taken camping, but the main effort will be having a rig I can take to pretty much any track and tag along with most any other rig.

I have a pretty good idea what I want. Clean LWB on 235/85r16s, RUF, minimal to no lift, gearing, and a body and chassis that are clean (not rusty, not beaten to hell...yet). G13B/G16B doesn’t overly phase me yet but a 1L won’t do. I want to keep the Sierra running gear but probably go to WT diffs with NT spring spacing.

It will cost way more than its end value but I’m in this as much for the project as the end result. If it takes me 12-18months I’m perfectly ok with that. I don’t want to take shortcuts, I want to make sure the quality of my work is high, and most importantly enjoy the build.

[jdk81]

Sounds like a reasonable build without going over the top.

The work you want to do to the chassis is easy and wont take long at all, the body work to keep it looking streetable will take the time.

Sourcing a lwb chassis, then putting a diff lwb tub on it will probably be a pain in the butt and cost more than it needs to.
Probably better off waiting and looking for the lwb you want.

Start collecting the parts now.

[bumstein]

Right!!! Well that gives me a little more info to go with.

My advice is to start here:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=52270&hilit=Sierra+101

I don’t know your experience with Sierras but this will likely have some good info for you, even if some of it you will already know.

Finding a vehicle, take your time and search far and wide!! You can find plenty of LWB’s which are 1.3. If that works well for you then great, if not then consider the G16B conversion. If the 1ltr isn’t goi to work for you then don’t buy one. Either way you should be able to find one that already has a good body and isn’t too ugly underneath. This will save you cost and time!!!

12-18 months is not a long time to strip a vehicle back to chassis and have it running again for the average punter. Yes it can be done and there’s guys on here that are great at doing brilliant builds in no time at all. But for most blokes this sort of thing takes lots of time.

In regards to mods, my advice is go conservative. Sierras are brilliant little beasts from stock and do well in most 4wd settings. Conservative mods can make it better but huge mods can make it much worse and unusable on the road.

For example tyre size.

The size tyres you’re considering are pretty big. Not saying don’t do it, but be well aware it will take work to get them to fit. I figure that size is equivalent to say 31 to 32”?

You’ll need to cut some of the bodywork to get them to fit, particularly the guards. You’ll need to space your bump stops which will reduce your flex. You’ll need to gear it, they are around a 20% increase in circumference so reduction gears in the transfer (or other combo) will be necessary, say 5.14ish gears? But you’ll also be prone to snapping axles so chromo axles and cv’s will be necessary. Factor in the cost of all of this. In addition, cops notice big tyres. May not bother you but is worth considering seeing as you’d like to use it on the road a bit.

Oh, and any lift centre of gravity will be increase its potential to fall over.

Here’s a tyre comparison to illustrate the difference.



I think you need to have a very clear idea in mind of what you want out of your car and what mods you really want to do. Personal experience says that things that originally seem like a good idea can often have more detrimental affects then positive ones. You may have heaps of experience here and know what you want! If not, think long and hard about it. I suggest finding your LWB and driving it heaps before making solid decisions.

In regard to the build process I recommend not going too crazy!! The more you do the more it will cost and the longer it takes etc.

So!!

Perhaps consider this a approach;
Purchase and drive the car.
Whip it off the road once your clear on the path you want to take.
Give the car some love! Redo all the wheel bearings, swivel hubs, king pin bearings, brakes and any other bits a pieces that require work. Alternatively if your convinced WT is the way to go you can have the axle assys already done before you tear the Car apart. Give the car a good goin over while your there and fix or tidy up anything that requires fixing and tidying. Do the mods you want to do then [emoji3]

[MrRocky]

+2 buy and drive with other zooks
Have a clear mind what u want to
Purchase all the gear
Set aside some time then put it all together

[crf529]

Thanks for the input.

Agree on the base car. I have no intention of getting into a slightly cheaper or more readily available LWB if it just means hour and hours of rust or damage repairs before I can even think about the upgrades I have in mind. And it’s definitely not going to be a half hearted attempt, either done right or not at all (I won’t find any satisfaction otherwise). So fixing/beating/welding the inner guards and seams flat will likely need doing, and it will be getting gears very early on in the price. I will also be going down the path of having it engineered. At his point in time, doing it mostly myself I’m happy with a figure around 10k investment (give or take), but I’m keen to hear if anyone has ballpark figures that are wildly different to this?

After endless hours of stalking the forum and various build threads I have the idea very clear in my head of exactly what I want, and am mostly debating the ‘how’ I will approach it, rather than what my intentions are. Also I guess rightly or wrongly I mostly haven’t entertained the idea of ‘just driving it’ first, as I already have a smallish tire zook, and see this as much about doing the fab as having the thing on the trails.

I may pass on the chassis idea for now. But potentially might keep an eye out for parts for the time being.

[bumstein]

Sounds like you’ve got a good idea on what you want and you’ve got a good starting budget!

Having said this if the $10k includes the purchase price of the car you might find after you’ve paid for a good LWB your remaining budget will be quickly absorbed.

I’m doing a ground up rebuild and going large and as I’d anticipated it’s costing a pretty penny and a bit. My mods are all fairly conservative and completely functional.. I could drive it from Bunbury to Queensland any day but will hold its own on the trails!! That’s my goal. Feel free to PM if you’d like to know more about the costs.

Good idea do start collecting the bits you know you’ll use. From hub and steering knuckle rebuild kits and wheel bearings to transfer case gears!! You could even acquire a 1.3 transfer case to rebuild with reduction gears while your still searching for the car.

And although I don’t recommend doing a full rebuild unless you’re totally set on it and have a good reason to do so, you’ll be able to build a great car [emoji3]

Now go and build an awesome LWB and make sure you post plenty of pics in your build thread!!

[MrRocky]

Id suggest seat time in a stock sierra first, they are unlike any other 4by to drive and it will ultimately make you a better driver in the zook

[just_cruizin]

Buy a rig and just drive it, only then will you find out what you NEED to do. 90% of what you read is bullshit written by people who have no idea what a well setup vehicle does. Most people don't know how to setup a RUF correctly. Setting up a leaf suspension is complex in determining the cycle, how to determine shock length and valving, bump stop position and how that works with the rest of the system. Now throw in tyre size and clearance issues. Add 1.6lt engine and clearances for that, where does that position the gearbox, how and where are you mounting the transfer. Lots to think about that is seldom discussed

[crf529]

Thanks bumstein I’ll try and send you a message tomorrow.

MrRocky, genuine question, how different is a stock Sierra to a stock Jimny or one with some lift and tyres? Given their very similar wheelbases, track widths and weights they surely can’t be apples and oranges? Obviously the coil/leaf is at odds but in a stock to very mild vehicle they have similar articulation and it’s likely to be more a ride comfort thing?

It’s as much a project to learn new things on and because I enjoy building stuff as about the end result, so exactly how capable a stock Sierra is doesn’t overly concern me. Not to mention I could spend what a stock leafy would run me on gears and lockers for the Jimny and be miles ahead. It’s a combination of wanting something that is far more capable, requires work, but doesn’t need to be a daily.

[MrRocky]

Completely different cars to drive. Personally i hate the way jimnys drive and find them terribly unstable offroad. Lifted jimnys are even worse in my opinion. As far as capabilities go the sierra is miles ahead and gets better with the right mods

[pete_79]

Hmmm, this all sounds very familiar....

Own a Jimny, have grand plans of the ultimate LWB build, dreaming about all of the awesome fabrication work that could be done.
Was there myself not so long ago.

Reality is a bitch though....

I was in this space not that long ago and I have to say just_cruizin has nailed it.

Buy your first Sierra, wheel it for a while and start making your stock pile of parts that you can use for your ultimate build.

Sierras and Jimnys are completely different beasts. What you think is essential now will most likely change once you actually drive a Sierra.
What you think is easy now will prove to be a bigger job then you first thought.

I had pretty much the same thoughts as you, but I ended up buying a completely different Sierra to what I thought I wanted, and I’m so glad I bought something that I can wheel right away and not have to spend 1000’s of hours in the shed working on before I could hit the tracks.

Get something you can drive for now, get a feel for what you need for your local tracks and then you’ll know what direction you should head for your build.



So far I’ve only got a spare transfer case and stock rear springs for my ‘dream build’. But I’m really enjoying driving what I’ve got, getting a feel for my Sierra and finding out what I actually want for my ideal build compared to what the internet says I should build....

[just_cruizin]

A 3K sierra that can be wheeled now whilst the rest is underway will be invaluable for knowledge and experience and will still be worth 3K when you go to sell once the project is done.

[greavesyzook]

There's a swb that comes with a rough lwb Ute on gumtree looks restoreable.. you could buy that and wheel the swb right away and build the lwb whenever ya ready

[crf529]

Thanks all, I will continue to bide my time then and wait for a reasonable and mint-ish LWB.

Yeah definitely not touching anything that rusty. I will pay a premium to avoid endless rust repairs.

[Gwagensteve]

I will reply in more detail later, but expect this process to take >2 years. Relatively few projects of this size are completed. If you still have a functional 4wd, expect it to take longer.

[greyghost]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I will reply in more detail later, but expect this process to take >2 years. Relatively few projects of this size are completed. If you still have a functional 4wd, expect it to take longer.

greater than 2 years is an understatement of the century!!
ive had my LJ for more than 4 years, and haven't had a functioning 4WD for closer to 6, and its still taking way longer than expected.

it will always take forever, if you have a functional 4WD, because "whats the rush, I've got a car" are the words you will hear issuing from your mouth at some point.

[vet 180]

greyghost wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

I will reply in more detail later, but expect this process to take >2 years. Relatively few projects of this size are completed. If you still have a functional 4wd, expect it to take longer.

greater than 2 years is an understatement of the century!!
ive had my LJ for more than 4 years, and haven't had a functioning 4WD for closer to 6, and its still taking way longer than expected.

it will always take forever, if you have a functional 4WD, because "whats the rush, I've got a car" are the words you will hear issuing from your mouth at some point.

This x100


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[bogga]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I will reply in more detail later, but expect this process to take >2 years. Relatively few projects of this size are completed. If you still have a functional 4wd, expect it to take longer.

Bang on. I'm at a guess near two years in and realistically 12+ months from finishing.

[MrRocky]

Get all your parts beforehand and have a clear idea of what you want to acheive. Theres no reason you cant knock it out in 3-6 months if you allocate yourself time and stay motivated.
Many that undertake these projects have no prior knowledge and find themselfs with dwindling motivation not touching the car for months between sporadic work.
Personally i cant stop once the project has been commenced

[greyghost]

I wouldn't class myself under informed, rather quite experienced.

but no matter what you plan, there are always thing that come up during a build that you either couldn't foresee or they are the type of things that you end up saying "while we are here, or while we have the cab off we might as well do this..."
thing always get rethought out one the car is apart...... alway

[Gwagensteve]

Right, in front of a computer with some time and a beer.

I have completed/helped/ advised many Sierra builds.

First question: What have you built before? I mean start with a sketch or cardboard model, cut/welded/bolted right through to completion? How much of that has been structural and safety critical?

Are you planning on paying/working with a welder or fabricator?

The big problem with a rolling chassis build is knowing where to stop. The "while it's this apart" mindset kicks in and then you're working on things that aren't going to make a tiny bit of difference but take DAYS AND DAYS to complete. For example - GregC's transfer mounts.

When we did GregC's car, which was two years from start to finish, the mechanical/chassis/suspension took 1 year. The body and completion took the next year. That was two people working on the car most weekends, a solid budget, and experience of similar builds. Greg already had all the parts and budget to buy whatever parts were required to bring to the shop the following weekend. We described the car as full of 1% mods - things that might only make a tiny difference, or were done almost purely for neatness or serviceability, but took AGES, and here's an example.



Greg wanted a flat belly, because we were raising the transfer case anyway. We also wanted provision for a traction bar, and the gearbox mount needed to be in a slightly different position because of the Jimny auto. The end result was running two new tubular crossmembers to support the transfer, with tabs for the traction bar and gearbox. This meant we could loose the stock rock anchor gearbox crossmember. Then we could set 3mm flat bar with captive nuts welded in not he bottom surface of the rails so a flat belly pan could be fitted. The byproduct of this was the stock muffler position wouldn't work, and all the hard lines on the RH chassis rail needed to be relocated to the top of the rail, which meant custom body supports to allow the hard lines to run through them, which meant bending and flaring a tonne of hard line. Because of this, the exhaust ended up like this:



Can you see the effect of scope creep? At this point, we were both coming from lots of experience with Sierras in difficult terrain so we knew why we were doing what we were doing, and the car has been on the road for many trouble free years since, but its VERY hard to maintain focus when you just have rails in front of you. (quite apart from it being very difficult to assess clearances etc if you can't put a body back on from time to time to check.

I hope now you can see the way things cascade and one decision in one area flows on to the whole car. In the case of the exhaust on Greg's car, its' where it is because we raised the floor, so we could raise the fuel tank but also so we could have a flat floor with the shocks we chose, which were chosen at the start of the build.

Please don't think I'm trying to be patronising but the amount of planning is immense on a chassis up build, if you want to avoid the compromises of the "got to get it done in a week" mentality of most mods.

Your basic plans are sound, but I would very strongly advise you to buy a complete auto EFI Vitara as a donor car. the difference in the quality of the outcome (and the ease of sourcing parts) will make it a godsend. Engine/gearbox/loom/steering column (of you want) fuel tank/power steer/diff gears/rear axle/front brakes all from one car makes it unbeatable. Especially as its the easiest EFI G16 variant to fit, and nets the best gearbox ever fitted to a suzuki for off road work.

There is also a high likelihood once you've finished you would have done it differently. Greg wouldn't have run a body lift if he had his time again... but when you've built the car around a set of decisions, (and had it engineered) it can be very hard to change something major. I know of cars that have been in the build for so long that they're now behind the 8 ball from a capability standpoint because the way we build cars for our terrain has changed due to the experiences of the intervening years.

My honest advice would be to buy a cheap SWB sierra and do the minimum required to get it driving the terrain you want to tackle. Yes, you'll do it hard, yes, you'll be hard on the car. This doesn't matter - better to do that than build your "dream" LWB the wrong way because your basing your ideas on the internet. (please, no offence intended)

You might not actually care very much for driving the terrain your proposed build is designed for. You might (like me) find you don't want to spend years building a car )and $$ engineering a car) to drive terrain that's really quite destructive. You might also find your cheap beater drives everything you wanted.

Additionally, there's no such thing as a proper multipurpose rig. A car that drives technical terrain isn't a commuter for long. lots of people have thought they could do this, but in the end the harder the terrain and the more modified the car, the less its driven (on AND off road) and the less motivated you are to drive it on road and on easy trips.

This stuff has comes from both my own personal experience and 25 years of suzuki club membership where I've seen people go through it all many times.

please don't think I'm being negative - I'm just trying to prevent another unfinished project. If you like building stuff more than driving stuff (like me) get stuck into it. I you are building something to drive more than you do now, build the absolute easiest-to-assemble car that can do the job you need it to do. Regardless what we've built over the years we've all been outdriven by the guy with the 1.0litre and bald 30's because he's the guy out there every weekend honing his skills rather than in the shed trying to build a better mousetrap.

Steve.

[just_cruizin]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Regardless what we've built over the years we've all been outdriven by the guy with the 1.0litre and bald 30's because he's the guy out there every weekend honing his skills rather than in the shed trying to build a better mousetrap.

Steve.

Ain't that the truth

Damn you Redna

[Technotron101]

Oooh greenzook shots fired.

[just_cruizin]

Don't worry he knows it. Bloody thing goes everywhere

[greenzook89]

just_cruizin wrote:

Ain't that the truth

Damn you Redna

I remember a member years ago used the saying "just twinlock it and drive it". I cant remember the exact member but its rung very true with the Redna build.

To the OP. I'd love a dream build, but seeing where bogga is with his (3+ years) aswell as hennos build, they will be awesome cars when done but thats a lot of wheeling missed. In contrast Redna went from a stocky dunga to trail ready in 2 months roughly, its nothing flash. I'd be frustrated if I spent 3 years on a build and my new build was only marginally more capable.

[bogga]

I went from wheeling once a week or more to nothing in the last 12+ months when I made the decision to end the swb and move on with the lwb.

My observations from this build...

1. When you think you have everything you need after collecting parts for a long time, you don't. So much small stuff required.

2. When you set what you think is a realistic budget for the build, double it.

3. When you set a timeframe to complete, grab your calculator and times it by 2.5 then add 20%.

4. Build to your skill set and knowledge. Now I'm handy mechanically wise and can make shit look good, but no fabrication skills so have to rely on paying mates to do the fab work which is very time consuming that devours green bills.

In hindsight I should have thrown the 16b aw4 at the swb, injected some funds to remedy a few achilles heels and kept wheeling. Yes I'll be very happy when my build is finally complete as I won't give up and I'm way to commited (+ a further 6months to point No.3), but it is a ton of seat time I've sacrificed to wheel the same tracks I did in the swb?!?!?!

[rexhunta]

bogga wrote:

4. Build to your skill set and knowledge. Now I'm handy mechanically wise and can make shit look good, but no fabrication skills so have to rely on paying mates to do the fab work which is very time consuming that devours green bills.

I am the same, I have had basically no fab skill, but I taught myself to be handy mechanically and can rebuild most things or repair on the trail. I sat a mate down over a few weekends and basically got taught basic Fab skills with a gasless mig I bought ( plus I have his gas mig which I fall back on when needed for thicker).

I'm now pretty confident in building brackets, repairing panels and have a entry level knowledge on how to set up a mig and get it going. With some small CAD training from Youtube I now can set up drawings of things and email them off to our local laser cutter and have him cut what I need and pick it up. So much easier and neater!.

1 thing I have learnt is to not to buy the cheapest tools. Try and go something Mid range. I've got enough gear in my shed now to do major engine/wiring swaps and complete engine/gearbox rebuilds. It's all fun.

[vet 180]

greenzook89 wrote:

just_cruizin wrote:

Ain't that the truth

Damn you Redna

Redna went from a stocky dunga to trail ready in 2 months roughly, its nothing flash. I'd be frustrated if I spent 3 years on a build and my new build was only marginally more capable.

This.

It’s all about the fun at the end of the day. Doesn’t matter if you are in a dream build LWB Sierra, JK on 37’s or old Land Rover. If there is a smile on your face that’s all that matters.


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