[Rex Everything]

Hey there...

I've been thinking about this for ages cuz I bought my Collie new and the pain I feel when a branch runs down the side is just too much to handle.

I'm thinking Jimny cuz solid front axle, p/steer, air con, etc.. What about a solid front axle in a Vitara? Is that feasible??

It'll be getting a new engine cuz of the obvious, but which one? I've read that many posts about different motor transplants and as many for & against arguments and I'm more mixed up than before. I'll be getting most stuff done by a pro simply because I'm too lazy and don't have enough knowledge about modern engines to probably do it anyway.

Ok. So, I want it to go, but in doing so, do I really need Hilux diffs or whatever? Prefer an auto box...

I'll be lifting it, wanting flex, and putting a spotlight here and there, and this and that, too.

It'd really, really be helpful if we could start at the beginning

Mostly a touring 4x4 but, when I get to where I'm going, I want to have some fun in it too and not cry if it gets a scratch or ding.

Also, the name of a good Zook specialist in Sydney or up the coast a bit would be great. I tried Snake on the phone and he had no time for me, I guess they get heaps of calls from try-hards though...

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


https://imgur.com/eqcIkHG

[Rex Everything]

Broad post...

1 Hows about first putting a solid axle in the front of a Vitara wagon?
Waste of money on not?

2 What about a motor for a Jimny?
What's the best bet?

Thanks.

[MrRocky]

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=52270

.

[Rex Everything]

Thanks for even entertaining my questions, but...

Ok.. Not actually a noob, noob.

I put a 1.8 Corolla motor and 5 speed box in an LJ80 before the invent on fuel injection, in most comparable donks for the time, and there begins my problem; let's say mid 80's

Paid $2500 for an Ultimate suspension kit that in hindsight was obviously a mistake. 2" shackle extensions that made the car, not to mention the running of 33's at 13psi for the road. True, it was a beast, but I kept breaking mainshafts? between the fly and box.

I have had bigger, better 4x4's in between - my link in op for current?

So total dunceness aside, the questions remain...


1 Hows about first putting a solid axle in the front of a Vitara wagon?
Waste of money on not?

2 What about a motor for a Jimny?
What's the best bet?

Thanks.

[Rex Everything]

I'm not one to cry over $800 for a G16b or whatever motors I've read about in search.

It's getting a rebuild anyway, or whatever goes in...


Still interested if a solid in the front of a Vitara, or not, is even worth typing about???

Thanks

[MrRocky]

If you want cheap, capable and reliable then stick with a sierra. If you want to triple your costs and half your capabilities then get a jimny or vitara

[Rex Everything]

Ok. Let's spend up...
So, a solid front axle in a Vitara is not a good idea?

Then, as per your post, even playing with a Jimny is a waste?

Regardless of what my posts contain, you assume I'm on a budget..

Never, in my original post, have I suggested on skimping...

Can you help other than suggesting basic mods on a Sierra?

Thanks.

[Rex Everything]

You could simply say that the Vitara mod is a waste and a Jimny donk will be about $1200 depending...

If that is indeed fact.......

[ZUZUKI]

Solid axle Vitara has been done, but it's a loot of work, especially if you are paying someone to do it & the end result will be difficult to engineer / register.
Jimny drive train (esp. rear diff, but also auto gearbox) can be a little fragile with more power. Early G engine cars can go to G16B out of a Vitara or Baleno. Later M engine cars can go M15 or M18 out of Swifts & Liana. They are tight inside for a touring car.

So, from your original post....which is a bit all over the place, these two comments stand out.
Prefer an auto box...Mostly a touring 4x4 but,

Buy a 1996-1998 H20A engined auto Vitara wagon. $4k - might need timing chains & a bit of love $2k - the actual engine is unlikely to need a rebuild.
Do a 30-40mm suspension lift. $1200 OME is as good as anything
Do some banging & cutting to clear 245/75R16 M/T tyres $1250 for 5
Fit an air locker to the rear diff. $2k, incl air compressor & install
If you must, winch in a custom bar. another $2+k.
That will be a fun to drive, surprisingly capable & reliable (as long as your right foot is not too heavy & you don't pick killer terrain to drive) rig, that will meet your stated needs.

Rgs, Michael

[Rex Everything]

Thanks for taking the time to write that, Michael.

Vitara thing was because they're a bigger, nicer ride to start with, but throwing money away is just silly. Also, I'm just over IFS which is the reason I asked about a diff transplant
So it's a Jimny or... Sierra. Not too sure about Sierras due to them being so basic, but then that can also be a good thing, I guess. I know there's not much room inside as I also had a hi-roof Sierra many years ago, but I've got another car for my daily drive so being a Sardine for a little while is fine.

Yes, the OP was very broad, I guess to give an idea what the end result would be, but I did then ask two specific questions, one of which has been answered.

So, if MrRocky is being straight up, leaf sprung Sierras are better, cheaper, and easier than coil sprung Jimnys... Can I get three reasons why, please?

Transplanting a different motor into a Jimny or Sierra is now what I need info on. I read that a 1.6 runs less compression than a 1.8 so they can run turbos easier, and the 1.8 is a more difficult fit. Then I read about a Honda motor going in - so, what's the answer here?

Can the same motors be used in both Jimnys and Sierras? I may be interested in a turbo depending on reliability, build, and rego issues. What else needs changing or strengthening to support said transplants?

I can do most everything else myself but, for an engine and gearbox, I'd rather pay somebody for a proper job who can have it engineered at the same time

Thanks.

[MrRocky]

The sierra transfer, diffs, unis, gearbox is all at its limit with the 1.6ltr. The jimny stuff is even weaker. At least with a sierra you can go for a lwb if touring is the goal, and the 1.6 swap makes towing viable even on 32"s with some gearing adjustments.

[pete_79]

Because leaf sprung Sierras ARE better, cheaper and easier then coil sprung Jimnys....

All other crap aside, the front end of the Jimny is the problem.
The sock set up front end is too stiff and lacks travel. Every (read every) aftermarket kit will make this poor design worse.

The rear end works quite well, the front end doesn’t. This results in an unbalanced and unstable vehicle.
Check out this thread (http://auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30877&hilit=goat) and see how much work is required to get a Jimny that is almost as capable as a Sierra.

If you do go for the Jimny, go the 1.8L. Hopefully you get a good tuner to resolve the little issues that this swap has.

No you can’t (easily) do the same engines in a Sierra as a Jimny.
M series engines (for Jimnys) will need a whole bunch of electrical work to get them into the G series Sierras. Not saying it can’t or hasn’t been done, but if you’re not doing it yourself then be prepared for some nice invoices from your mechanic....







Edit; added link.

[Rex Everything]

Thanks guys. You've, between you, especially MrRocky, made nearly 6000 posts. Most probably helping guys like me asking what, to you, may look like silly questions.

I've spent ages in search and whilst informing, it hasn't really answered my particular headaches, it may have created more. So...I'm really grateful for your time. That link, Pete, is a very long and detailed thread, thanks for searching for it and posting it for me. I thought a Jimny might be a good option, but it seems like you guys know what you're talking about.

Buying and modding a Zook may not be a big outlay in the grand scheme of things, but it's something, if begun, that still needs to be done correctly if you don't want to go throwing money away (modding anything = throwing money away).

And, we continue...

LWB? Definitely an option...

It appears that a Sierra is the way to go if you want to mod it into a strong, reliable, funbox.
MrRocky has mentioned that a 1.6lt is putting the running gear 'at it limits'. I think if I put a motor into a car I would prefer putting in a smaller, more stable motor rather than cubes (cubes, ha, like it's a big block or the like). Adding a turbo, without putting silly boost into it, can compensate for it's shortcomings in size. If a well designed 1.6lt motor is solid enough to handle forced induction later, I'm happy to start with that.

Understanding that the above is what might happen down the road, what's next? I've read that Hi-Lux diffs appear the way to go so I guess that's what should be factored in. Knowing that they're an option means that I can deal with them later. Right?

I would still like to use an auto box as, in my opinion, they are better off-road - no flaming in here, right?
I can worry about what's inside at a later time (unless ridiculous), but external sizes and shafts measuring up, can I use an auto or is that the same as putting a solid axle in a Vitara?
Lastly Transfer case - I'll just ask, help?

So,

a) 1.6 solid enough (and economical (outlay) enough, or is there a better bet) to do required job?
b) Auto box, possible (feasible)?
c) Transfer case?

Let's say it's your's and you felt like modding it how you'd like to get the same result I'm chasing, What'd you do in the areas a), b), c)?
Somebody else is doing all this, so don't go crazy, but it needs to be right - odds are the guy who'll do it knows what's going on, but I'd like to know as well so I'm not had.

I can be as descriptive and polite as I can be and only hope some knowledge comes my way...

Thanks in advance.

[MrRocky]

The g16b efi engine is more than enough power and still requires sensible throttle so as not to bust things. The g13bb 1.3 efi motor is also a nice upgrade and doesnt require gbox adaptor. That being said the 1.3 carby is fine with a set of reduction gears in the transfer case.
Hilux diffs were a 1990's things before chromo front axles were available cheaply.
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com has everything you could need (be aware americans suggest some ridiculous mods) as does ADD engineering on fb.
Id suggest buying a tidy stocker and progressively modding it as you learn to drive it. Sierras are unlike any other car to drive offroad and whilst more capable than 90% of 4wds you can wind up on your roof trying to drive like a full sized 4by

Edit: as for an auto i think unless you have alot of susp travel then the ability to clutchdump and use momentum in some scenarios offroad outweighs the benifits.
Maybe go testdrive a g13bb auto jimny to get a feel for the lack of power on offer with an auto and such a small capacity engine.
(Que gwagen autos are better comment in 3..2..1..)

[ZUZUKI]

Ok, if it was my money....& I had (still have & still building it) a plan for a car like you say you are looking for.

Base car: LWB Sierra. Gives stability & more room. Drives a whole lot differently to a Vitara, Jinmy or Colorado!. Take one for a drive to re-aquatint yourself - most people 'moved on' from the simple charms of a Sierra.
Finding a donor car is becoming tricky - they are out there, but commanding $6-$8k for a really good car.
Many are already hacked about, rusty, old & tired. A Jap built Sierra will be 30+ years old, as in mid 1980s, only very rarely as a wide track. An Indian Maruti will be not so well built in some respects & only 20+ years old, as in mid 1990s. A Sierra comes as a ute tub (like a SWB, only longer - this is the best, IMO) or full metal single cab with a tray on the back - not your ideal touring car, as the cab is tight if you are over 5'8". A Maruti started as a ute tub & some still are, but most were hacked (locally, when new) into tray backs by cutting the tub & introducing a bulkhead (tin) & cab back & roof section (in fibreglass) & an alloy tray. This is bigger internally than a full metal cab, but still not big.
There was/are fibreglass canopies out there for LWB tubs & a sheet alloy or even steel tube & canvas canopies can be made for trays. Buy the best car you can find that suits.

Engine: G16B from a SQ416 Grand Vitara (because they are newer, have intake manifold in the right place often set up with P/S pump, A/C if you want it & a clutch fan on the front). Fairly rare to come up as a wreck though.

Gearbox: AW 4spd auto - this might be already on the back of the GV G16B if you are lucky, otherwise, an earlier Vitara will be fine. They are robust, if even 1/2 looked after. Remove the T/case.

Transfer case: Sierra with 4.16 gearing. Could stay with the original NT handbrake on the t/case output, but if you go Wide Track diffs, the hand brake is in the rear drums already.

Diffs: Wide Track, on narrow track spacing. chrome molly front CVs & axles. Rear is trickier, could do a Vitara based special, or stick with Sierra. Either way, you want to end up fully floating & disc braked. 4.625:1 ratios with air lockers.
Like MrRocky says, Hilux / Bundera diffs were hot in the day, but unnecessary, heavy, wide blah, blah for this ultimate build.

Suspension: ARB OME rear springs all round = Rears up Front.

Steering: Jimny P/S box.

Wheels: 16" x 7" steel SQ420 / SQ625 wagon

Tyres: 235/85R16 - pick whatever brand & pattern makes you happy. Will have to step down to something like 225/70R16 for engineering. Read up on 'virtual lift' = do as much cutting of the car guards to clear tyres. 50mm body lift as a last resort if you want to less cutting.

Barwork: try to add as little weight as possible, ie no rock sliders, unless you really plan on driving stuff that they might be useful in - do want to keep that mint car you found straight though. Bullbar, winch capable, but light.

The rest is fluff & trimming to your taste.

Disclaimer: this spec of car, done nice & right, will take $25k+ (depends on how much you do yourself) & 2 years minimum to finish.
You would want to be keeping it to hand down to someone.

Good luck & have fun,
Rgs, Michael

[Gwagensteve]

I will reply in more detail later, but in short, I don’t know what result you’re chasing.

ZUZUKi has outlined a very comprehensive build which will be effective in steep/difficult/technical terrain, far beyond what your Colorado could tackle, (and it’s almost exactly how I’d recommend setting a car up for Victoria) I have no idea if that’s what you need. Other than some comfort from the improved ride, almost none of those modifications will make any difference to touring capability, and if you don’t need very advanced capability it’s just a long and complicated build that’ll never be used.

[Rex Everything]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I will reply in more detail later, but in short, I don’t know what result you’re chasing.

Thanks again, guys. At work and don't have much time, but to clarify the above question...

A vehicle that doesn't have to be flogged to stay at 110kph, or to get there. When 'touring vehicle' is mentioned, I mean something that I can drive 1000k's with relative comfort and power. When arriving setup a tent a take the car out for fun. Another option would be, as I live on the coast, take it out locally for fun trips. I already have a daily drive so I don't care if the Zook gets beat up a bit; that's the whole idea, actually.

What I would like to hear, maybe just wishful thinking, is


*Sure. G16B is the right choice for the reasons mentioned previously.

*A Jimny auto box can be used but you will probably need a new valve body and this and that later

*Wide track diffs are are the go if you swap out the axles and CV's for chrome stuff, maybe an auto locker in the rear for on road manners and an air locker in the front.

*Sierra TC is fine especially using wide track diffs, maybe this and that...

That's all I really need when talking to "a guy" who'll then know what I'm on about. If I can get the above taken care of by somebody who knows what he's doing, and when/if stuff breaks I can go back and see him, the rest will be a walk in the park. Imagine trying to have this conversation with a guy on the phone when he's busy at work...

I appreciate the time ZUZUKI has put into his/your post (that gives me obvious future knowledge at the same time which I need)
You're correct as well, Michael, this will add up. However, if done right, maybe I've got my funbox for the next 10 years only needing maintenance and minor repairs.

MrRocky wrote:

Maybe go testdrive a g13bb auto jimny to get a feel for the lack of power on offer with an auto and such a small capacity engine.

Thanks.. This is why I've been asking about power-ups. With a bit of oomph, an auto will get you anywhere...imo


Thanks again, guys.

Rex

[MrRocky]

Jimny auto blows up with a 1.6
Better off using vitara box

[Gwagensteve]

This isn't a diss about your use or sierras, it's just about getting the right tool for the job.

Basically, you're outlining the thing we'd all like to think our cars are capable of and none are, regardless, I still don't really know what standard of terrain you want to be able to drive with your completed car, anyway, here goes.

In short, a Sierra is a vehicle that's optimised for rough terrain travel. Most modifications we work with are aimed at increasing a Sierra's off road capability, because it makes sense to optimise what the car is good at.

No Sierra is comfortable for 1000's of km touring. There are lots of reasons for this. Noise (wind and mechanical) directional stability, aerodynamics, interior room, air and water leaks, and limited payload are all things that mean it's comparatively hard work to drive one long distances and these are very difficult/impossible to resolve. I spent a long time sealing cabin holes, preventing air leaks, and adjusting the doors etc to improve cabin comfort, but it's ultimately pretty futile. Even with comfy seats etc, driver fatigue is a huge issue just because you're working against the car all the time.

So, if you don't need the outstanding capability of a Sierra, it makes little sense to start with a car that's going to work against you for most of its use. Much better to tow a capable sierra behind the Colorado and enjoy both cars for what they're good at.

Consider that you're going to be starting with an old car that's already mostly worn out. The idea you can build a 30 year old car, substantially increase the power and torque it's producing, put big tyres on it and work it hard off road and only have "maintenance and minor repairs" to deal with is fanciful. (but again, this depends on where you want to drive it) As is the idea you can hand a car and a pile of parts to someone and have a reliable, straightforward outcome. You're going to get someone's idea of how to wire a G16B. You're going to get someone's idea of what an air filter setup should work like etc, and your ideas are going to clash with the builders. Disappointment awaits. I have seen this play out many, many times.

And then, you end up in the bush 1000's of km's from home and it's broken, and you don't know why it's broken because you don't know what went into it, where the compromises were made and the corners cut, or how to fix it, because you didn't build it.

There's a reason touring cars are best kept close to standard.

If you're all for massively increased capability over your Colorado, go for your life, but build a super light weight SWB sierra and tow it behind the Colorado for all those transport km's between off-road destinations.

If you're happy with the off-road performance of the Colorado but just don't like the idea of damaging it, consider the cost of building and maintaining your dream Sierra, along with rego, insurance, engineering etc and then deduct that from the resale of your Colorado. You can make a fair mess of the Colorado, STILL have a better tourer than a Sierra will ever be, and you don't need to care about resale because it's still worth more money than you'd sink into having someone build a sierra for you. Lets say the resale of your Colorado is $30K and the build price of the Sierra is $22K. So long as your colorado is worth more than $8K when you want to sell it you're still in front and you're not maintaining/rego/tyres etc on two cars, only one.

We're enthusiast owners. We work on our own cars and build our cars to suit exactly what we want to do. I have two road cars and I'm building a touring/tow 4WD. I don't need to drive my Sierra except for what it's good at. My ideas about what I think it should do well are always being updated - I want it to balance better, to be more reliable, to weight less and to be lower. I want to to be more reliable and stronger. The right car isn't set in stone, and that's the problem with getting someone to build a car for you. It's your (and mostly their) idea of what might work for your use in one snapshot. Again, this often leads to disappointment whe you take it out and it's not geared right or it breaks a semi float rear axle or whoever set the gears up stuff it and you've done a pinion despite them telling you they knew what they were doing.

I can't give more specific advice because I can't tell what your expectations are for the vehicles off road performance. Yes, an auto is vastly superior to a manual in all off road situations. Yes, EFI is vastly superior to carburettor. Other than than, everything is dependent on your use and perceived terrain goals.

I drive off road exclusively with other sierras and I never drive alone, having given up on trying to chase Sierras with a big car years ago. I also find driving alone boring and risky - the worst possible situation. So every time I go out I'm assessing what other's cars are doing and how they drive them compared to mine. For me, 4WDing is about building car that makes difficult terrain look easy. That's not the same as just "having fun" - because it's no more fun driving a modified sierra than it is a standard Sierra. In fact, a modified car is often less fun because you have to overcome your high expectations of it's performance and having less available terrain that challenges you as a driver.

So the best build for you is the simplest car that can drive the terrain you need. If you're talking about a modified Sierra, I'd recommend going driving with some modified sierras in your area to determine if that's what you need, because they're very, very capable, but also so you recognise how compromised they are for everything else.

Steve.


Oh, and your locker choice is back to front for road manners, and yes, you'll want to use a Vitara AW-4 auto with the Sierra transfer case behind a G16B. A Jimny auto is too weak.

[atari4x4]

build a blagon.

[Gwagensteve]

Agreed. But the OP seems to have a problem with IFS.

[ZUZUKI]

This is going to be a hard one to work out Rex.
Your wants for use are too dissimilar.
Almost no live axled 4WD is going to do 1000km in a day as well as almost anything IFS will.
You probably don't actually need a Suzuki anything, but have an idea of re-creating the good times of your Suzuki owning youth.

Starting all this again, if you threw $8k of suspension, tyres & lockers into a 'beater' $5k PA Mitsubishi Challenger or 90 series Toyota Prado (both IFS, but it'll do the job & both petrol for cheapness), that would be as close as you could get to what you want - reasonably robust, reasonably comfortable, reasonably capable - & all full of compromises.
A Suzuki option, if you want, is the 1996-98 Vitara I mentioned much earlier on, or a later 1999-2004 Grand Vitara but they will be less spacious, harder to source aftermarket gear for, not as powerful & not ultimately, as robust.

Read, absorb & re-read Gwagons post above & work out what your needs / priorities are - no one car can do what you currently think you need it to do. As he says, much disappointment awaits.

Good luck, Rgs, Michael

[Rex Everything]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your time.

As for use, it's not a comp truck and I'm with others when I go out.

I have done circles around cheaper 'beaters' and spending money only where need be spent, but for the money I'll be spending, I'll either get a POS something else that'll, I'm sure, will break things and still be a POS or I could spend what's needed to get a fun little car which I hope I can count on for years...

I don't think I'd enjoy doing 1000Ks in one day in any vehicle anymore, I just meant if said k's were to be done I don't want to flog a Zook to keep decent speed or spend money on a whambox that'll for sure cost money along the way.. See what happens

[shep]

Just buy a jeep.

[MrRocky]

And a fire extinguisher...

[Gwagensteve]

I'm with Shep.

I don't really know what you're asking or really need help with. I'm genuinely trying to help you find the right car, but you seem unable or unwilling to be specific about your needs.

A comp truck is built to suit the rules and format of the competition it's entered in. It's not a measure of capability.

If you're going out with others, you need to figure out how to build a car based on the terrain you drive as a group. There's no point dealing with the compromises of a highly modified Sierra (or Vitara, or whatever) if the capability of the group doesn't justify it - you'll just be the guy in the slowest/least reliable/most cramped car for no reason.

I think you have rose coloured glasses on in relation to how trouble free and long-lasting a modified Sierra/Vitara/whatever will be. the whole nature of modifying an old car results in these cars being maintenance intensive and they do, from time to time, break. The further you stray from standard the less time the car is driven and the more time it's worked on. You seem to think that spending money on having a workshop build you car will result in a modified car with near-factory reliability. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you want that, buy a new jeep and buy bolt on parts.

[shakes]

The more modified things are, the worse they are as a tourer and the more issue's you will have.

What exactly do you want from the car?
Primary as weekend basher driving the hardest tracks your capable of and your happy fixing it for the next 3+ weekends?
Simpson/cape 'epic' style touring?
Using it for 'Family' style camping/fishing and mostly weekenders with mate's with a half day's wheeling thrown in to get to a good spot?

As exciting as new projects are, you need to work out what your building and why first other wise it will cost 3x your Colorado and still be un-usable.

[vet 180]

Rex Everything wrote:

Broad post...

1 Hows about first putting a solid axle in the front of a Vitara wagon?
Waste of money on not?

2 What about a motor for a Jimny?
What's the best bet?

Thanks.

1. Short answer is no. A rear vitara based setup using Sierra knuckles is the best I have seen, otherwise there are hilux based bolt in kits. If you have the fab skills I would the first option.

2. 1.8 liana engine. Reasonably simple conversion with a great outcome.




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[Marko_SJ]

Just scratch the Rodeo.

[Gwagensteve]

vet 180 wrote:

A rear vitara based setup using Sierra knuckles is the best I have seen, otherwise there are hilux based bolt in kits. If you have the fab skills I would the first option.

Yuk and yuk.

Sierra knuckles are nowhere near heavy enough to support the weight of a built Vitara. Whilst this is what I'm building for my Sierra, I have my own peculiar reasons for wanting to go this way and I wouldn't recommend it. To match the width of a Vitara, the housing would need to be retubed, custom shafts made, and then you're stuck on small brakes/bearings/kingpins/limited steering options/small TRE's and 26 splines.

Hilux is too narrow for Vitara. It doesn't matter how many americans make kits to put them under Vitaras, It doesn't make them the right width.

If you're solid axle swapping a Vitara, you're already loosing control and giving up any chance of light weight/elegance, so it makes sense to choose the right width axle from the outset.

Steve.