[Stocky]

Hi Guys
I’ve had a stockman for seven odd years with a genuine 68500km (hate the screaming F10) and been around this site since 2012...where does the time go.
It having an off the chassis resto.
I would like to fit a g16b along with a gearbox and transfer or similar.
(Everything will be reconditioned.)
Now if there was a wish list what would you choice be?

[Gwagensteve]

The last thing I'd wish for in a Sierra would be a Vitara transfer case.

I'd be very wary of reconditioning a G16B.

There are many ways of doing this swap. As you have a Maruti, you can't use the gearbox behind the G16B, so you're up for a gearbox regardless.

I would retain the Maruti transfer case.

If it was my car, I'd run a Vitara AW-4 auto behind a coil pack Baleno G16B.

It's not the easiest G16B to fit, but is the best donor and has the highest chance of lasting well.

The easiest G16B to fit in the car is the Vitara version, but these have less sophisticated EFI, a distributor, and a crossover tube that can make bonnet clearance an issue.

A coil pack baleno G16B with a Jimny inlet manifold makes for a neat installation and negates the need for radiator hose mods to get coolant from the back of the block to the radiator.

You'll need a G13 sump and oil pickup regardless of the variant of engine you choose.

[ZUZUKI]

A Vitara manual behind a Vitara / Baleno G16B is also a decent thing - depends if you want to stay manual or want to go auto.
Like Gwagen says though, ditch the Vitara T/case.
Issues are your tunnel is going to need 'expanding' to take a Vitara manual & even more so to take an auto. A little easier with a body lift, as is the Vitara intake crossover pipe (if that is the engine you use) but most would prefer not to bodylift a car these days.
The Virata gearstick comes out further back, so more tunnel hack needed, but if running an auto, to mount the tbar shifter will need tunnel mods anyway.
It is easier to use one car for the donor, so if you can find a decent Vitara in the manual / auto configuration you want, it will provide all the bits you need.

This is a bit of 'holey grail' stuff, but if money & time are on your side, IMO, THE best donor is a SQ416 = 1998-2002 Grand Vitara SWB.
These give you a chance of an equally low km drivetrain as a Baleno, north south configuration, coil pack EFI with an intake manifold that inlets to the front - all the right bits in one package, just very hard to find.
Most common as a soft top & I don't think I've ever seen an auto behind a G16 SQ.

While a J20A conversion has been done a few times (donor = late SE Vitara & more common in the SQ Grand Vitara) most would say the extra work involved is not worth the compromises & extra performance gained.

Good luck, Reg Michael

[Gwagensteve]

G16 SQ soft tops definitely exist - we had one in the club.

The bigger problem with the SQ is I believe they're immobilised and column/cluster swaps are harder than with an older vitara.

We have a club member who has an SQ G16 donor and was definitely struggling with the loom compared to an older vitara.

[Stocky]

Sorry been in transit
I looked at a Vitara JX soft top auto two weeks ago but at $2500 I let it go
Perhaps I should of negotiated a little.

The info you guys have given is great.

[ZUZUKI]

I think the earlier cars may have been an aftermarket immobilizer, not integrated with the ECU.
My 1999 SQ625 had a separate fob for the remote locking & immobilizer functions.
While it worked, I didn't trust it, so we decided to unlock it with the remote, then reverted to manually locking & unlocking with the key in the door barrels - still continue to do that, to the point that the door barrels are getting worn out & we miss out on the 'immobilization' function, but it has never given us any trouble.
The up-date cars (2002 on) might have had more sophisticated ECU immobilization, fitted by Suzuki, which is why I suggested the early 1998-2002 version.
Yes, the cluster is a lot bigger & messier to fit from the 1996 onwards Vitara and (different, but just as big) Grand Vitara.
Rgs, Michael

[Stocky]

I’ve spent days searching for a G series 1.3 - 1.6 and box to suit from whole vehicles such as pre 2000 Vitaras, Swift And Baleno but there all high in km or made up of bit from here and there. Genuine is hard to find.
So....Is has anyone tackled anything later such as a M series or similar.
I have an Auto Electrician working for me which would assist.
Your thoughts are welcome

[Gwagensteve]

I’ll reply in more detail when I’m not on my phone, but an M swap is very very much harder and will require lots more parts chasing and blending, and basically will require two gearboxes, a whole Jimny as a donor

I don’t know what you mean by “made up of bit from here and there. Genuine is hard to find”

The most desirable G series engine/transmission swap would be made of from “bits from here and there” - coil pack Baleno engine and ecu, Jimny inlet manifold, and vitara auto and TCC.

Otherwise a damaged/rusty vitara mKes a great donor, even if you subsequently swap to a newer long block.

[Stocky]

Thx Steve
I was looking for an original untouched/match number Vitara but seems hard to find.
What I get is when asking if it’s original is “engine was changed out 50000km ago” eg
I was looking for a Vitara complete using the G16b along with AW-4 auto
But as mention by Michael and yourself Steve earlier in this post perhaps a Baleno G16b is the way to go.
Found some stand-alone G16b engines conditions unknown and for me I want to make sure all the accessories are there and who knows if it’s an anchor?
I will keep on looking for a Vitara G16b with an AW-4, most have been priced around $4000-6000k

[Gwagensteve]

You don’t need be looking for complete running cars. Scour gumtree and auction sites for crashed/scruffy cars that can’t easily be registered. Vitaras are at an age now where they’re starting to rust/ paint is failing and this makes them very, very cheap because they aren’t worth enough as a running car to bother fixing.

Don’t be concerned by an engine that’s been swapped. You’re actually buying all the parts/brackets/loom/computers etc to swap the engine and transmission into your car- that’s where the value of the donor car is, not in the block itself, that can then come from anywhere.

[Stocky]

Thx again Steve
Will give an update on the progress

[Stocky]

Is $2500 to much for a complete 1994 manual 4 door Vitara with a G16b 280000 km

[Gwagensteve]

It’s ballpark for a runner. You can offset some of the cost by parting out the shell, interior etc. You can use the vitara manual but it’s a bit of a messy swap as it doesn’t really fit the tunnel and needs the jackshaft cut down and work to the transmission crossmember much the same as fitting the auto.

You can also use the fuel tank, power steering system (with an adapter wedge) and ventilated front rotors and calipers from the donor.

Personally, I’d still hang out for an auto, but that’s dependent on use. The more off-road driving you do the more you want an auto.

[Stocky]

Steve i run a 79 series pre dpf coiled rear and running an upgraded 200 series auto and yes auto is the best

[ZUZUKI]

The good for an M family motor swap, is you can get 1.3, 1.5, 1.6 & 1.8litre capacity versions.

The bad is the RWD gearbox from a Jimny is considered weak enough in a Jimny (which is a heavier car than a Sierra) but will be overstressed in a LWB with a 1.6 or 1.8 in front of it - and that's the manual. The auto is glass.
It's a much less common swap, so less info about. Wiring is a big step on from Vitara stuff in difficulty level. The Jimny ecu has troubles running 1.8litres, but I think you need a Jimny ecu to talk to the bcm, especially in relation to the auto & 4WD activation - some of that might not apply as you would be running a Sierra t/case & front axle, not the dial activated chain drive t/case & free wheeling hubless Jimny front axle.

You will likely have a restricted market in WA. Complete, running Vitaras are rare at $500 (I've bought 2 in 2 years at that price) but easier to find at $1000+ in Vic.
Suzuki are still building G16 engines - in the APV short bonneted van, but I don't know if it is easily 'convertible' into a Vitara / Sierra application by using all the bits from a Vitara - certainly the sump & manifolds from an APV would be junked.

Rgs, Michael

[Stocky]

Thx Michael
Saw a APV as a wreck but the motor had no description

[Gwagensteve]

The APV motor will swap in - the head and block are the same, but you'd need ALL the accessories from a Vitara. The engine is laid well over and as a result they have a cast sump extension that needs to be removed and funky manifolds, so engine mounts, manifolds, sump and oil pickup and all other bolt on accessories would be required.

You can get a sense of how far the engine is laid over in this photo.

[ZUZUKI]

Interesting to know the APV block is a swap in for a Vitara / Sierra.
I knew they were canted over a heap, but didn't know how much that affected the belhousing pattern. If, when the block is vertical, a Vitara g/box bolts on, which is also vertical, that give us a source of newish engines into the future.
Rgs, Michael

[Brenno]

From my understanding the bell housing pattern is the same and can bolt directly to a normal RWD gearbox. The APV bellhousing itself is designed differently.

[vet 180]

Stocky wrote:

I’ve spent days searching for a G series 1.3 - 1.6 and box to suit from whole vehicles such as pre 2000 Vitaras, Swift And Baleno but there all high in km or made up of bit from here and there. Genuine is hard to find.
So....Is has anyone tackled anything later such as a M series or similar.
I have an Auto Electrician working for me which would assist.
Your thoughts are welcome

Over here the M18 into Sierra is the most common swap. No one this way bothers with the G series as it’s considered too old.

In saying that I have no idea what’s involved, I do know they use the jimny box and liana engine, considering you need a new box etc for the 1.3/6 it seems worth checking how much extra is needed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gwagensteve]

I'm not convinced anyone in Australia has an M18 Jimny that's actually working properly, let alone a M18 Sierra. And It would still require pretty much a whole Jimny and a G13 Sierra gearbox, alone with a heap of custom, well before you deal with getting the M18 to actually work properly.

or complete aftermarket management.

[ZUZUKI]

This doesn't apply to the intended Sierra conversion, but a maybe / possibility?? into a late Jimny, is to find a wrecked SWB JT Grand Vitara - these ran a M16.
Part of the issues running an M18 in a Jimny, is you need to use the Jimny ECU due to the interface with the T/case & 4WD activation - this might(??) be similar in the JT - rotary dial T/case shifting etc.
If the JT ECU could be used (along with much / most of the loom?) in a Jimny, then the 1.8litre capacity shouldn't be the 'big jump' issue that it is when getting the Jimny 1.3litre ECU to run 1.8litres.
Rgs, Michael

[Gwagensteve]

Aren’t the JT m16 SWB ngv’s single speed awd?

[vet 180]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I'm not convinced anyone in Australia has an M18 Jimny that's actually working properly, let alone a M18 Sierra. And It would still require pretty much a whole Jimny and a G13 Sierra gearbox, alone with a heap of custom, well before you deal with getting the M18 to actually work properly.

or complete aftermarket management.

Although I will concede that many jimny M18 conversions are not at 100% potential, there still are plenty in Australia that run better than your average G16b conversion.

Why would you need a whole jimny and g13 Sierra gearbox?

Wouldn’t you just need broken M13, M18 and loom with Ecu from m18 powered vehicle, jimny manual?

If the OP was a 1.3 I would be on the G16 bandwagon but as it is a 1.0 and requires considerable modification for a G16 anyway I am of the opinion is worth considering and researching what’s involved in fitting the newer, more reliable, more powerful M18 as it has been done before successfully into a Sierra. G16’s are getting quite long in the tooth.

In saying that the APV van engine sounds like it could be an option for the OP’s needs, just need to piece together all the vitara bits
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[greyghost]

because all the M-series engine ECU's in Australia are immobilised from the factory.
and it becomes prohibitively expensive to get the keys from Suzuki and have them matched to the immobiliser. if they will even do it, as most won't cause its not in the original car with the correct VIN.
so if you want to swap an M engine into anything, that didn't have one to begin with, you need to buy a running and driving car.
doing it this way is still cheeper that dealing with the local Suzuki dealers, and you are assured that the engine and trans work working perfectly before you ripped them apart.

[Gwagensteve]

That's the problem vet, that's what people think they need. Greyghost has mentioned the immobilisation problems. To physically graft an M18 into a Maruti engine bay is going to take more than you get from an M18 liana and a broken M13 (which may or may not include anything useful other than the sump)

Radiator
Radiator piping
Radiator shroud
Fan
engine mounts
flywheel/flexplate
airbox
clutch cable brackets and cable

Plus a G13 Sierra manual gearbox to build the hybrid

Then ignition barrel/key and VIN etc from the donor liana and aforementioned immobiliser hassles.

I'ts a while since I've read the M18 swap thread in detail, but I don't believe the M18 ECU is a feasible swap into an M engined Jimny, and I don't think it's feasible to use the entire Liana loom in a Jimny either, so then we're back at aftermarket management and dyne time for an engine that doesn't have a strong aftermarket following.

[vet 180]

Gwagensteve wrote:

That's the problem vet, that's what people think they need. Greyghost has mentioned the immobilisation problems. To physically graft an M18 into a Maruti engine bay is going to take more than you get from an M18 liana and a broken M13 (which may or may not include anything useful other than the sump)

Radiator
Radiator piping
Radiator shroud
Fan
engine mounts
flywheel/flexplate
airbox
clutch cable brackets and cable

Plus a G13 Sierra manual gearbox to build the hybrid

Then ignition barrel/key and VIN etc from the donor liana and aforementioned immobiliser hassles.

I'ts a while since I've read the M18 swap thread in detail, but I don't believe the M18 ECU is a feasible swap into an M engined Jimny, and I don't think it's feasible to use the entire Liana loom in a Jimny either, so then we're back at aftermarket management and dyne time for an engine that doesn't have a strong aftermarket following.

Ok I forgot about the immobilizer problems from Australia.

Regarding the other stuff like radiator, piping, shroud, fan and air box I would suspect the jimny stuff wouldn’t fit anyway so something would have to be worked out. Flywheel and clutch cable should come from the broken M13. Engine mounts well I assumed as it’s a 1.0 you would be starting from scratch anyway. I really don’t see the value of the full jimny half cut, but maybe it is easier to find a broken nugget jimny. In a conversion there a many little niggly things you will use from the donor car and shed, likes hoses and brackets.

I didn’t look in detail at the time when I went in one, but do remember the M18 does somehow looks big in the engine bay of the Maruti. I know they used jimny manual and liana engine and liana Ecu and loom. I can say the result was very impressive. The car had no front end lean, felt light in the front still unlike other conversions I have seen. From an in car perspective 120hp never felt so powerful. The torque was very impressive also.

I guess I am biased as I have been in one that worked, and worked really well so think it’s worth investigating. The immobilizer sounds like a royal pita. Also no one swaps a G series here due to oldness and unreliability. But you see a lot of M series swaps.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gwagensteve]

I'm sure an M18 engined sierra feels great compared to a G13A Sierra, I'm not doubting that for a moment. It's really a case of whether it's worth the hassle as M18's aren't plentiful, M13 Jimny's still seem to fetch reasonable money and they rarely turn up broken, and there's a lot of head scratching in-between.

I'd expect going down this path to cost at least twice (maybe much more) as much as a G16 swap and with no viable automatic other the M16 SWB NGV which is a unicorn, there's little appeal for me. Same reason I'm not interested in a 4AXX swap - no decent auto.

The problem with saying things like radiator/piping probably won't fit anyway" is that everyone needs to start somewhere. Jimny's and Sierras are quite close for lots of parts, and I've seen an M13 is a Sierra and it did fit well with a blend of 1.3 Sierra and M13 Jimny parts. Problem is the OP doesn't have a 1.3 Sierra and without an M13 jimny, they won't have anything to adapt or compare it will be completely trial and error. The work I do on Sierras is only feasible because I have a stash of 1.0/1.3/Vitara parts lying around that normally gets me in the ballpark.

Having a wrecked Liana and a Jimny manual gearbox arrive on a pallet would pretty much guarantee the most expensive, time consuming and frustrating way of doing an engine swap.

[vet 180]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I'm sure an M18 engined sierra feels great compared to a G13A Sierra, I'm not doubting that for a moment. It's really a case of whether it's worth the hassle as M18's aren't plentiful, M13 Jimny's still seem to fetch reasonable money and they rarely turn up broken, and there's a lot of head scratching in-between.

I'd expect going down this path to cost at least twice (maybe much more) as much as a G16 swap and with no viable automatic other the M16 SWB NGV which is a unicorn, there's little appeal for me. Same reason I'm not interested in a 4AXX swap - no decent auto.

The problem with saying things like radiator/piping probably won't fit anyway" is that everyone needs to start somewhere. Jimny's and Sierras are quite close for lots of parts, and I've seen an M13 is a Sierra and it did fit well with a blend of 1.3 Sierra and M13 Jimny parts. Problem is the OP doesn't have a 1.3 Sierra and without an M13 jimny, they won't have anything to adapt or compare it will be completely trial and error. The work I do on Sierras is only feasible because I have a stash of 1.0/1.3/Vitara parts lying around that normally gets me in the ballpark.

Having a wrecked Liana and a Jimny manual gearbox arrive on a pallet would pretty much guarantee the most expensive, time consuming and frustrating way of doing an engine swap.

Fair point.

I guess I am of the opinion that the G16 is not a cheap easy swap in itself into a 1.0 Sierra and they are becoming quite long in the tooth. The M18 may not be that plentiful, but neither is the G16 anymore and there are many other M series engines that are plentiful with shared parts. The M series has proven itself to be very reliable also, as you mentioned not too many show up broken.

Regarding the auto, if the OP wants an auto and not a manual, then yes, that’s a solid argument for the G16 as the 4 speed is very tough. I don’t think the jimny auto is as fragile as you seem to believe as I have romped mine, and know others that have and never had an issue, but I would be fearful putting an M18 in front of one.

I guess in a nutshell my opinion is it’s still worth considering and researching the M series option if the OP wants a manual. If he wants an auto then the G series will most likely be easiest.

On a side note I took 2 of my cars out on the weekend for a great trip. Blew an engine in 1....it wasn’t the damn jimny unfortunately [emoji31]. I would have gladly blown the engine that. That engine and trans has taken bigger beating than anything I have owned. Hit the sand at 9:30am and stopped just after sunset.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stocky]

Question; if I go for fitting the Vitara 5speed does this pic depict the position of the Vitara gear stick?