[bob_oz]

Has anyone seen these in the flesh?

I wasn't expecting a pair of lockers to be so cheap for my new GV

https://www.zookoffroad.com.au/product- ... mbo-tre4x4

[atari4x4]

That's pretty cheep when you account for GST & shipping... They've been around for a while now, I'd be concerned about them going into alloy housings.

[Joe]

atari4x4 wrote:

I'd be concerned about them going into alloy housings.

How do ya reckon one of the 4xfourfart LSD's would go in a alloy housing?

[Polar_Bear]

Joe wrote:

atari4x4 wrote:

I'd be concerned about them going into alloy housings.

How do ya reckon one of the 4xfourfart LSD's would go in a alloy housing?

I got a steel front diff for sale if ya want it

[Joe]

Polar_Bear wrote:

Joe wrote:

atari4x4 wrote:

I'd be concerned about them going into alloy housings.

How do ya reckon one of the 4xfourfart LSD's would go in a alloy housing?

I got a steel front diff for sale if ya want it

Nah my front is all done and sorted, was more just as a different option for the ngv people

[30ONA]

And us SQ drivers. I will get the lsd one day but still have the alloy housing.

[Gwagensteve]

What’s the appeal of an LSD? I would imagine it would produce some quirky handling in H4 whilst lacking sufficient grip to approach the effectiveness of a locker in technical off road situations.

[30ONA]

If fitted in the front an lsd will provide better steerabily than a fully locked front end.
Lsd rear for gravel driving. It's pretty scary when the rear slides on gravel with only power to one wheel.

[Gwagensteve]

Well yes, but only compared to a locker when locked. The problem is few LSD’s are aggressive enough to drive the car forwards with one wheel in the air, so the penalty in steering performance of a front LSD at speed on H4 doesn’t translate into anything like the off road capability of a locker.

Vitaras are already prone enough to roll oversteer, an LSD will only exacerbate that trait.

If the rear end is sliding it’s sliding. When a tyre looses traction in one direction it looses traction in all directions- if the car is sliding with an open diff it will slide with an LSD, the difference being the car will rotate more quickly with the LSD because both tyres will slip instead of the inside tyre spinning and bleeding off torque which would push the outside tyre beyond its grip if it was being powered. (Via the LSD)

Worst handling car I’ve ever owned on dirt- STi WRX with front and rear LSD’s and adjustable front and rear torque split. Diabolically terrible.

[30ONA]

I'd be pretty happy with this lsd. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 6334133316

[Gwagensteve]

Linky no worky

[Joe]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Linky no worky

Works for me but i follow that page, zookoffroad

[bob_oz]

I'm pretty sure the new grand vitara diff housings are all alloy across the range -

The traction control is pretty harsh with revs so i can't see a locker breaking the housing without a tonne of right-foot.

I'm mainly looking for something to keep it easier to handle on steep ascents and descents as the rear can get out of shape before trac control kicks in, and going down hill trac control doesnt help when wheels slide (ABS turned off at this stage)

[Gwagensteve]

Locker(s) should not be used when descending, especially a front locker. They make the car unpredictable, difficult to steer and prone to slipping across the slope, especially in a vehicle with limited wheel travel.

[boostedbrick]

My 2 cents on a front LSD.

I ran one on my JK, it was never the intention but a smashed R&P and bent carrier left me needing something. A trutrac LSD was only a bit more than a new carrier, half the price of a locker. I had no intention of fitting a locker to the dana30 as I expect I would have broken even more things.

It was supposed to have around 80% lockup. Combined with some left foot braking it was more than effective at keeping both wheels spinning even with one in the air. Not 100% lockup but it did the job. Still allowed easy turning in slippery stuff.

4H 80kph+ in sand was certainly interesting, not dangerous but it had a tendency to follow ruts that it would otherwise have run over the top of. Low speed turning was heavier but not an issue for me. I felt in almost every situation that traction was an issue, that it helped.

/edit. One thing to remember, if you can't unlock your hubs that heavy steering is going to affect you on the bitumen as well.

[bumstein]

boostedbrick wrote:

Combined with some left foot braking it was more than effective at keeping both wheels spinning even with one in the air.

Was about to chime in myself with this. I used this with an 80 series with LSD’s and it worked really well!!! Climbed like a goat, L4 1st gear and centre diff locked and it slow and steady climbed some really steep rocky terrain

[Gwagensteve]

Which/whose LSD's? The stock Toyota LSD is garbage.

[bumstein]

Gwagensteve wrote:

The stock Toyota LSD is garbage.

Worked perfectly fine for me

[Gwagensteve]

What was in the front?

[bumstein]

As far as I know Toyota factory lsd, there was at least a rear lsd

[Gwagensteve]

Toyota have never sold a 4wd with a front LSD, nor was one ever optional. The only manufacturer to offer a front LSD was ford for the F series as far as I am aware.

The Toyota LSD is a basic clutch design and requires left foot braking or application of the handbrake to “work.” It requires fairly close matching of wheel loads to be effective - and as such won’t drive the car forward with one wheel in the air like the Nissan LSD or some aftermarket designs. I have experience with the Toyota LSD from 80 series and third gen hiluxes. We ended up contacting Toyota technical in the early 90’s about how ineffective the LSD was, and they gave us the handbrake trick. They’re still nothing special.

I think the key to the 80 Series is they generate lots of traction and have lots of wheel travel, which covers for the poor LSD a bit. That’s not the case in a hilux.

They can be “shimmed up” but then will tend to drag tyres on sharp turns etc.

I’ve been very impressed with the operation of the Zexel/Torsen LSD but they require very aggressive left foot braking to operate so they require an automatic gearbox to get the best out of. Generally though, LSD’s are a road traction and handling aid, not an off-road device.

[bumstein]

Whatever, point still remains. Worked perfectly fine for me

[Gwagensteve]

Sure. Not everyone needs lockers, particularly in a heavy vehicle with lots of wheel travel. I think that you were unsure if the 80 series had a front LSD is proof enough of how effective the Toyota LSD is- ie you wouldn’t know if there was one fitted. Good LSD’s are obviously effective, as boostedbrick pointed out with his experience of a trutrack, and you’ll definitely feel it working, in my opinion though, I wouldn’t spend money on one over a locker though.

[bumstein]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I think that you were unsure if the 80 series had a front LSD is proof enough of how effective the Toyota LSD is- ie you wouldn’t know if there was one fitted.

I don’t think it’s proof of anything other than I didn’t have the thing apart. The reason I say it worked fine for me is that by using left foot braking was extremely effective in my experience. It was no replacement for lockers but the difference was astounding. In my opinion that is proof to me that Toyota LSD’s are effective.

Other than that I had no problems with it, thus worked perfectly fine for me.

[Gwagensteve]

A car with open diffs is incredibly effective with skillfull left foot braking.

[bumstein]

I’m not skillfull

And there is no way, in my opinion, that you’d get that kind of improvement with open diffs.

[technobedlam]

I've been running the 4xfourart LSD lockers front and rear for about 8 months now and been impressed. Minimal interference in handling and they work well to overcome traction issues due to the lack of flex in the GV.

[Gwagensteve]

Do you have any insight into how these work (as in, their design principle?) The marketing spiel implies these are the holy grail of differentials - a 100% locking diff with no detectable operation, but I feel like there has been something lost in translation (how can a rear diff know if the car is in 4WD?)

The diff hat is etched with "LSD" but they are advertised as a "locker" - those things are generally exclusive of each other.

Can you shed any light?

[technobedlam]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Do you have any insight into how these work (as in, their design principle?) The marketing spiel implies these are the holy grail of differentials - a 100% locking diff with no detectable operation, but I feel like there has been something lost in translation (how can a rear diff know if the car is in 4WD?)

The diff hat is etched with "LSD" but they are advertised as a "locker" - those things are generally exclusive of each other.

Can you shed any light?

Not lots. I can only describe the experience I've had so far. I assumed they were more LSD than locker (cos physics) but they do act locked.

The rear acts like its locked yet clearly slips on high traction surfaces. The front drives and steers like the LSD I expected but when a wheel is propped in the air I don't lose traction. The whole thing is seemless other than a minor change in steering weight if you vary acceleration during a turn.

I thought I understood them but I don't think I do.

[llama_au]

Watching with interest how they go in other people's cars. I don't actually feel I need it, the traction control has seen me through every situation I've been in. Yes, it's pretty harsh and agricultural and can overheat the brakes if it's activating all the time for hours, but I've not been in a situation that I needed a locker to get through. It is an NGV after all.