[TC.Barky]

Hey all,

New the forum, have been lurking for a few weeks poking about. Looking at getting a Sierra for boys trips without the wife/kids/camper trailer and possibly daily driver to work for a cheap runabout. Have history with patrols and Pajeros, currently on my second Pajero (2014 NW) do a lot of low range high country work running multi-day trips. Aiming for a capable fun car with dual live axles that won't cost the earth to buy and run (rules out patrols and cruisers) and something a bit different. Not expecting a power house or mod cons of a modern 4WD (though I will miss AC!!!!). Not planning on touring with it or doing the simmo etc as the Paj fits that role well, but will need to drive it on the highway to the high country.

Current car: https://www2.pajeroclub.com.au/forum/sh ... hp?t=41855

Just after some opinions on the below if possible to make sure I'm on the right track. Apologies in advance, I'm sure a lot of this has been covered before.

- Chasing (as I'm sure most probably are) ideally a LWB WT. My understanding is the LWB is quite rare. Wanting this setup for stability offroad as I'll be honest coming from big wagons the rollover risk in these seems high. I've seen a couple LWB tray backs but no LWB wagons, I assume these are always going to be NT given trayback? Is there an easy way to tell from looking at pics if they are NT/WT if not specified in an ad? Anyone have an opinion on LWB NT vs SWB WT as to which would be better (particularly more stable) offroad? Any issues getting parts for LWB? Most parts seemed to be shared from what I've read, is this correct?

- Performance. As above not expecting a powerhouse but I'm hoping these can maintain 100km/h on the highway without huge fuss (am I dreaming or is this possible? Haven't had the chance to get behind the wheel of one yet). Never done an engine conversion but reasonably handy on the tools so I'm not ruling out a 1.6 conversion - am keen on a project so this may well be what I end up doing. Carby upgrade/EFI with extractors enough on the 1.3 or would you skip that and just go the engine conversion? Have read about Weber carbies having issues in the high country, is there an alternative? (have never worked with carbies before, always EFI petrol or DID/CRD).

- Engineering. I'm in Vic. Any idea on ballpark cost of buying an interstate car with an existing 1.6 conversion? Assume it would need to be re-engineered if from interstate but if purchased from vic it would be right if already mod plated? While we're at it any idea where they are sitting on body lifts atm from a legal point of view? Changed a few times over the last decade not 100% sure where we're at anymore. Would like all legal happy to spend for engineering (though the funds I've been green-lit to spend are somewhat limited).

- Bushability. Are these prone to breaking anything commonly? Any must-have spares to keep on hand? Seen 4WD action bust shafts but they drove theirs like morons so not overly surprised.

- Leaf spring hangers. Have a sierra that is parked on the street near work a few times a week have spent a fair while drooling over it. One thing I've noticed is the leaf packs and the spring hangers look awfully prone to getting hung up on, do you guys find that in practice or all good. Are they robust enough to take a solid knock? Never had leaf sprung cars before, always torsions (yuck) or coils. These seem to flex pretty well even though they on leaves, I assume the secret here is to keep to soft spring packs and keep the weight down?

Cheers in advance!

[Gwagensteve]

This post has restored my faith in humanity. Thank you for writing a well researched and comprehensive set of questions and outlining your intended use carefully. It makes a huge difference.

I’ll reply in detail shortly.

Also, consider joining the Vic suzuki club, we’re a good bunch. (I’ve been a member for 27 years)

[TC.Barky]

Gwagensteve wrote:

This post has restored my faith in humanity. Thank you for writing a well researched and comprehensive set of questions and outlining your intended use carefully. It makes a huge difference.

I’ll reply in detail shortly.

Also, consider joining the Vic suzuki club, we’re a good bunch. (I’ve been a member for 27 years)

Ha no worries, was the forum moderator for the paj club public forum for many years so I know the frustration.

Where are you based? I'm in the outer western suburbs. Was a member of the Pajero club for a while but had trouble getting over to Glen Waverly for meetings.

[Gwagensteve]

Right, *rolls sleeves up*

LWB 1.3litre WT's have almost mythical status. I've not heard a hard number that came into the country, some say 50.. maybe there's more, but they're incredibly rare. They were definitely never sold new in Victoria, Suzuki australia never imported them. Ateco (NSW distributor) were the only people that brought them in as far as I know. We have a club member who has one. They were all the so-called "88.5" spec, with plastic flares, not the later steel flares.

There were no factory 1.3 WT tray backs.

OK, there is a way to get a WT LWB - the late Maruti MG410's were widetrack and shared their diffs with the 1.3 (not the case for the earlier narrow track Maruti's) , but these are 1.0 litre, 4 speed, and nearly all were cut into tray back form locally, arriving in the country as styleside cars.

There's no such thing as a LWB wagon in Australia. It was reasonably common to add a fibreglass canopy to a styleside LWB to create a sort-of wagon, but these canopies are now no longer available new, and the aftermarket local ones were never especially well made, typically creaky and leaky. There were a few factory plastic LWB canopies sold, but whilst beautifully made, these were high roof with sunroof and are bulky and heavy. not really want you'd want.

There are a few ways to tell if the car is NT/WT. I'm going to confine this discussion to leaf sprung, 1.3 litre cars as that seems to be what you're chasing (which makes some sense)

The first year for WT was 1988. The early WT cars might have a late 1987 build date and plastic flares.
All NT cars have round dashboard vents.
All WT cars have rectangular dashboard vents.
ALL WT cars have ~3.5" wide body coloured flares
ALL NT cars have either no flares or narrow black plastic flares.

If any of those things isn't clear or the car has been fiddled with, the telltale is that on WT chassis, the front springs sit outside the chassis rails, on NT chassis the springs are directly under the chassis rails. Once you've seen this it's unmistakable. The WT has much more bracketry under the front end to move those springs outboard. More in that in a moment.

You're clearly concerned about stability and I understand that. Sierras aren't really less stable than many larger "narrow tracked" 4WD's like 70 series, hilux etc. They aren't as stable as coil sprung land rovers/patrol/coil sprung cruisers, no doubt. However, where and how they are driven puts them on bigger angles. Their narrow track width is an absolute advantage - where a bigger 4WD might be stuck with one line through an obstacle, Sierra's have multiple lines. But that does tend to mean you're crossing ruts more and high siding ruts more, which aren't options available in a bigger car. Also, owners tend to care a bit less and try a bit more, because the consequences of the car flopping on it's side are minimal - they're rarely badly damaged and they're easy to put back on their wheels, typically a few blokes can right one very quickly without it turning into a massive recovery exercise. I've literally lost count of how many times I've had my car on it's side, and I can tell you it's not unstable at all, I just try stupid things in it. I've only had it on it's roof once.

Is a LWB NT more stable than a SWB WT? hard to say, they fit the track differently. On a tilt table the WT would be more stable, but on a track it's not that straightforward as the LWB won't get across the track as much and spans obstacles more.

consider too that many people swap WT axles under NT's. It's not a massively complex job and provides a better result than a factory WT due to the spring spacing - the narrower spring spacing of the NT means there's more tyre clearance, lower roll stiffness and more flex to be had with a WT converted NT than a factory WT, It's also much easier to put WT axles under a NT than it is to move the springs inboard on a WT!

Yes, most parts are shared. Rear driveshaft is pretty much the only unique part other than the panels.

Properly geared and in decent mechanical health, a Sierra will maintain 100km/h on the highway in stock form.

Extractors don't make much difference to the 1.3. If you think you may want an EFI 1.3 or 1.6 conversion don't bother with swapping carbs, extractors etc, it's just a waste of money.

Yes, an engine conversion to either a G13BB (early Jimny motor) or G16B is an excellent idea. The dependability of EFI, along with more power and torque make these swaps awesome. They're not terribly difficult to do (even the wiring) although there are sources for EFI conversion looms of the wiring is a concern.

I think engineering for a 1.6 is a ~$900 exercise.

I would be very wary of buying a converted car from interstate. Interstate engineering approval is worthless unless the interstate engineer holds a Victorian approval (VASS) so that's neither here or there, but while the conversion isn't all that hard, there's lots of ways to do cut corners or do things in a slapdash way. There are some excellent conversions out there but the owners know how well they've been done and they command proper money. An example, when I put an exhaust together for a 1.6 conversion it's a ~$500 job, parts only. The "correct" intake pipe from a maruti gypsy to run a forward facing throttle body G motor with the stock Sierra airbox is difficult to source and relatively expensive. Few bother, but it's so much neater.

Body lifts are legal in Victoria so long as they don't exceed 50mm, they're well constructed and the spacers are made of alloy or steel. I used to make and sell body lifts when I had access to a lathe (they require the manufacture of socket bolts as the studs are captive) I made a heap of them and still run one in my own car but I'd avoid the added lift if at all possible. We used to body lift primarily to assist in clearing large tyres (34"+) but those of us running tyres that large would all prefer a lower car these days.

What breaks? depends on tyre size and use. Transfer case rubber mounts, transfer arms bend, with larger tyres and a front locker front axles/CV's will fail. All of these can be elimintated/upgraded by the aftermarket. They're not unreliable cars other than the carby and typically aftermarket wiring. They're also not complex, heavy or expensive to work on.

Leaf spring hangers aren't a huge issue and aren't easily damaged.

Yes, using soft spring packs is the key. Whilst asking for opinions on leaves will just net you a list of every spring brand made, I like OME springs and depending on the weight of the car it might be prudent to remove a leaf to reduce lift and improve ride. Spring lift doesn't make these cars work better at all.

[TC.Barky]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Right, *rolls sleeves up*

LWB 1.3litre WT's have almost mythical status. I've not heard a hard number that came into the country, some say 50.. maybe there's more, but they're incredibly rare. They were definitely never sold new in Victoria, Suzuki australia never imported them. Ateco (NSW distributor) were the only people that brought them in as far as I know. We have a club member who has one. They were all the so-called "88.5" spec, with plastic flares, not the later steel flares.

There were no factory 1.3 WT tray backs.

OK, there is a way to get a WT LWB - the late Maruti MG410's were widetrack and shared their diffs with the 1.3 (not the case for the earlier narrow track Maruti's) , but these are 1.0 litre, 4 speed, and nearly all were cut into tray back form locally, arriving in the country as styleside cars.

There's no such thing as a LWB wagon in Australia. It was reasonably common to add a fibreglass canopy to a styleside LWB to create a sort-of wagon, but these canopies are now no longer available new, and the aftermarket local ones were never especially well made, typically creaky and leaky. There were a few factory plastic LWB canopies sold, but whilst beautifully made, these were high roof with sunroof and are bulky and heavy. not really want you'd want.

There are a few ways to tell if the car is NT/WT. I'm going to confine this discussion to leaf sprung, 1.3 litre cars as that seems to be what you're chasing (which makes some sense)

The first year for WT was 1988. The early WT cars might have a late 1987 build date and plastic flares.
All NT cars have round dashboard vents.
All WT cars have rectangular dashboard vents.
ALL WT cars have ~3.5" wide body coloured flares
ALL NT cars have either no flares or narrow black plastic flares.

If any of those things isn't clear or the car has been fiddled with, the telltale is that on WT chassis, the front springs sit outside the chassis rails, on NT chassis the springs are directly under the chassis rails. Once you've seen this it's unmistakable. The WT has much more bracketry under the front end to move those springs outboard. More in that in a moment.

You're clearly concerned about stability and I understand that. Sierras aren't really less stable than many larger "narrow tracked" 4WD's like 70 series, hilux etc. They aren't as stable as coil sprung land rovers/patrol/coil sprung cruisers, no doubt. However, where and how they are driven puts them on bigger angles. Their narrow track width is an absolute advantage - where a bigger 4WD might be stuck with one line through an obstacle, Sierra's have multiple lines. But that does tend to mean you're crossing ruts more and high siding ruts more, which aren't options available in a bigger car. Also, owners tend to care a bit less and try a bit more, because the consequences of the car flopping on it's side are minimal - they're rarely badly damaged and they're easy to put back on their wheels, typically a few blokes can right one very quickly without it turning into a massive recovery exercise. I've literally lost count of how many times I've had my car on it's side, and I can tell you it's not unstable at all, I just try stupid things in it. I've only had it on it's roof once.

Is a LWB NT more stable than a SWB WT? hard to say, they fit the track differently. On a tilt table the WT would be more stable, but on a track it's not that straightforward as the LWB won't get across the track as much and spans obstacles more.

consider too that many people swap WT axles under NT's. It's not a massively complex job and provides a better result than a factory WT due to the spring spacing - the narrower spring spacing of the NT means there's more tyre clearance, lower roll stiffness and more flex to be had with a WT converted NT than a factory WT, It's also much easier to put WT axles under a NT than it is to move the springs inboard on a WT!

Yes, most parts are shared. Rear driveshaft is pretty much the only unique part other than the panels.

Properly geared and in decent mechanical health, a Sierra will maintain 100km/h on the highway in stock form.

Extractors don't make much difference to the 1.3. If you think you may want an EFI 1.3 or 1.6 conversion don't bother with swapping carbs, extractors etc, it's just a waste of money.

Yes, an engine conversion to either a G13BB (early Jimny motor) or G16B is an excellent idea. The dependability of EFI, along with more power and torque make these swaps awesome. They're not terribly difficult to do (even the wiring) although there are sources for EFI conversion looms of the wiring is a concern.

I think engineering for a 1.6 is a ~$900 exercise.

I would be very wary of buying a converted car from interstate. Interstate engineering approval is worthless unless the interstate engineer holds a Victorian approval (VASS) so that's neither here or there, but while the conversion isn't all that hard, there's lots of ways to do cut corners or do things in a slapdash way. There are some excellent conversions out there but the owners know how well they've been done and they command proper money. An example, when I put an exhaust together for a 1.6 conversion it's a ~$500 job, parts only. The "correct" intake pipe from a maruti gypsy to run a forward facing throttle body G motor with the stock Sierra airbox is difficult to source and relatively expensive. Few bother, but it's so much neater.

Body lifts are legal in Victoria so long as they don't exceed 50mm, they're well constructed and the spacers are made of alloy or steel. I used to make and sell body lifts when I had access to a lathe (they require the manufacture of socket bolts as the studs are captive) I made a heap of them and still run one in my own car but I'd avoid the added lift if at all possible. We used to body lift primarily to assist in clearing large tyres (34"+) but those of us running tyres that large would all prefer a lower car these days.

What breaks? depends on tyre size and use. Transfer case rubber mounts, transfer arms bend, with larger tyres and a front locker front axles/CV's will fail. All of these can be elimintated/upgraded by the aftermarket. They're not unreliable cars other than the carby and typically aftermarket wiring. They're also not complex, heavy or expensive to work on.

Leaf spring hangers aren't a huge issue and aren't easily damaged.

Yes, using soft spring packs is the key. Whilst asking for opinions on leaves will just net you a list of every spring brand made, I like OME springs and depending on the weight of the car it might be prudent to remove a leaf to reduce lift and improve ride. Spring lift doesn't make these cars work better at all.

Phwoar thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.

My preference would definitely be to start with a relatively blank slate as half the battle with older 4WDs is trying to work out what's been done and how but if there is one with a neat looking conversion for the right price I'd consider it.

Not interested in huge lifts or huge tyres on this car, but mild lift yes. My suspicion is these cars won't need it anyway (plus tall SWBs are scary! ). Have been out with a stock early vitara many years ago and that thing would eat just about anything up on mild-moderate tracks even with bugger all clearance just thanks to the wheelbase.

Eyeballing this one at the moment, but not quite ready to pull the trigger yet and it's a bit more than I'd like to spend initially (read: the wife would like me to spend) . Looks remarkably clean though.
https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/detail ... 2726/?Cr=0

Other end of the spectrum is this, but I assume it's gonna be a pain to register (even if you ignore the welded rear diff).
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/hunting ... 1245874217

Once all this iso shite is sorted I need to head out and have a good look at a few. Does your club run regular-ish trips? Be nice to see one in action on the tracks (if you'd accept a big lumbering wagon as a tag along).

[Gwagensteve]

Hmm, both of those cars are less than ideal. If you intend using the car in the bush the advantage of the super clean paint on the 8.5K car isn't relevant any more. Other than clean paint it's hard to see the worth - the Weber isn't a feature and it has no other offroad-relevant parts.

The hardtop is fairly appealing but it's NT and the G16A is the least appealing engine conversion for a Sierra. Yes, it adds some torque but that aren't as lively as the G13A due to the longer stroke. it will need engineering for registration instantly making it a $7500 car by the time it's registered and engineered, assuming you have to do nothing other than have it inspected. With no under bonnet shots of how things like the airbox, fan/shroud etc were resolved there could be quite a lot of work in it. obviously it needs a rear diff centre to get through a RWC along with a bumper, and the tyres exceed the limit for approval too.

Personally, I think the maximum enjoyment with a sierra is having a soft top, and these are also the easiest to repair in the event of a flop or other off road damage - I've seen too many hardtop sierras totalled from a flop or getting jammed up on a tree/bank that a softtop would shrug off.

The club meets in Glen Iris just off the freeway. We're currently meeting via Zoom. Yes, we're (normally) a very active club with a diverse range of owners cars and and trips from social and easy to very, very difficult.

[Gwagensteve]

Oh, and the car on Gumtree is a good example of how it can be misleading looking at a Sierra. The owner didn't specify the year, its has a late grille fitted (circa 1995/1996,) the flares have been painted body colour and the wide rims make it look like it could be WT. With no interior shots to clarify dashboard it's sort of a bit tricky. The flares are consistent with a NT car (like he yellow LWB) and because the bumper has been removed you can see the springs are directly under the chassis - it's definitely NT.

[TC.Barky]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Hmm, both of those cars are less than ideal. If you intend using the car in the bush the advantage of the super clean paint on the 8.5K car isn't relevant any more. Other than clean paint it's hard to see the worth - the Weber isn't a feature and it has no other offroad-relevant parts.

The hardtop is fairly appealing but it's NT and the G16A is the least appealing engine conversion for a Sierra. Yes, it adds some torque but that aren't as lively as the G13A due to the longer stroke. it will need engineering for registration instantly making it a $7500 car by the time it's registered and engineered, assuming you have to do nothing other than have it inspected. With no under bonnet shots of how things like the airbox, fan/shroud etc were resolved there could be quite a lot of work in it. obviously it needs a rear diff centre to get through a RWC along with a bumper, and the tyres exceed the limit for approval too.

Personally, I think the maximum enjoyment with a sierra is having a soft top, and these are also the easiest to repair in the event of a flop or other off road damage - I've seen too many hardtop sierras totalled from a flop or getting jammed up on a tree/bank that a softtop would shrug off.

The club meets in Glen Iris just off the freeway. We're currently meeting via Zoom. Yes, we're (normally) a very active club with a diverse range of owners cars and and trips from social and easy to very, very difficult.

Yep all fair points. Never owned a soft top. Had a Targa Exa that leaked like a sieve though ha. Interesting points for positives though, I'll have a think about it. Haven't super settled on either, did think a soft top could be a lot of fun but security and weather a concern. Looks like replacement soft tops aren't overly expensive at least. They hold up ok on overgrown tracks in your experience?

[Gwagensteve]

My car is a trayback and I run half doors. Nobody I wheel with keeps the soft top on when off road- we run open/bikini top only. Don’t keep anything valuable in the car. A mate of mine doesn’t even have a lid on his glovebox. Nothing to see= nothing to steal.

[Brodie]

Thanks for the write up Steve.
I am in the same boat as TC, looking for the right Sierra.
The info you listed above has help narrow my search a fair bit.
Just need to track down a fairly stock tin top WT up here in QLD now.

[TC.Barky]

Gwagensteve wrote:

---snip

There are a few ways to tell if the car is NT/WT. I'm going to confine this discussion to leaf sprung, 1.3 litre cars as that seems to be what you're chasing (which makes some sense)

The first year for WT was 1988. The early WT cars might have a late 1987 build date and plastic flares.
All NT cars have round dashboard vents.
All WT cars have rectangular dashboard vents.
ALL WT cars have ~3.5" wide body coloured flares
ALL NT cars have either no flares or narrow black plastic flares.

If any of those things isn't clear or the car has been fiddled with, the telltale is that on WT chassis, the front springs sit outside the chassis rails, on NT chassis the springs are directly under the chassis rails. Once you've seen this it's unmistakable. The WT has much more bracketry under the front end to move those springs outboard. More in that in a moment.

snip---

At the risk of seeming dense, assume this is what you're talking about with the spring mounts making it a WT? (has rectangular vents also)


Also the flares, number 2 is obviously aftermarket but are these flares (number 1 and arrow) the 88 WT flares? Or aftermarket. Has this had guard chopping/paint or is that factory? Sorry not the widest angle on the photo.

[ZUZUKI]

Hi T.C.
Welcome to the world of Suzuki 4WDrives - the most amount of fun you can have for the least amount of money.
Sierra's in particular, but also the original Vitara.

Yes, that is the W/T front spring chassis perch offset.
The story is, that in the good old US of A, there were law suits about the Samurai (our Sierra) being too unsafe, due to rollovers & the average driver not understanding their or the vehicles capabilities & limitations.
The 'fix' by Suzuki, was to widen the track (hence W/T) by 100mm. Pushing the spring mounts outboard by 50mm each side.
This made the car acceptably stable.

Yes, the outer lip (No. 2) is an add on, to cover wider offset rims.
Yes, that is a standard W/T flare, although they are usually painted body colour. They are also steel (apart from the earliest W/T versions) but it is very thin steel (like all Sierra panels) & prone to damage. These may have been repaired & covered in a spray on coating like Raptor liner.


From your initial wish list, I wouldn't completely rule out a Vitara LWB wagon - 1991-1998.
These are IFS with a strut style shock & separate coil spring, but like your long time ago impressions, will go a lot further offroad (with the right mods & driver) than just about anyone with a bigger ('proper' 4WD) car would believe possible.
Much more comfy, capable & safe at highway speeds.
You can easily have your A/C.
Has 1.6efi stock (is the source of the 1.6 that powers many Sierra's), or 2.0litre V6 in later "Estate" versions (1996-98), which can be swapped out for 2.5 or 2.7litre versions from the subsequent Grand Vitara range - plenty of power.
Even auto if you want.
More stable than a Sierra offroad
But ultimately not as capable & you are less likely to be trying to do the extreme stuff Steve is talking about.

But sometimes, if you are set on a type / style of car, then stick to what your heart desires.
I wanted to build a capable hard core bush car - 20 years ago & settled on 2 options - A mucked about with Series One Land-Rover (I've had a few in the past), or a also mucked around with LWB Sierra. (at that time, the only Suzuki experience was the new Grand Vitara we had just bought - & still own)
I bought a Sierra, got about 1/2 way through the build - and one of the reasons it is not finished, is I still have a hankering for that Series One & been distracted by a few Range Rover Classics along the way.

The biggest stability difference between a N/T LWB & a W/T SWB will be felt in steep climbs or descents. A SWB is VERY short - much shorter than what you are used to. You can have a 'moment' in a SWB Sierra that other cars won't even register - I'm thinking short, steep rise out of, or drop into, a creek crossing, hit it wrong in a SWB Sierra & the wheels will be off the ground & you will be feeling you are about to go A over T. A LWB Sierra will give you much less of a 'moment' & your LWB Patrols & Pajeros will hardly wonder what all the fuss was about.
If you are doing "multi-day" high country trips, a SWB Sierra runs out of room quickly - will force you to pack & camp quite differently - not a bad thing in itself, but can be hard to adjust to (a Vitara wagon would also be a winner in this regard).
Many people 'get over' the 'simple charms' of a Sierra & graduate to something bigger with more comfort for the longer trips you do.

But the fun factor will be right up there - you will be surprised how well modern cars (with A/C) insulate you from the bush. A Sierra will let you smell, hear & experience the bush to a much grater degree, but also let the dust & weather in to a greater degree.

Good luck with your search.
Body rust is the biggest Sierra killer, followed by body damage - so body condition is key. All the mechanicals can be replaced & / or up-graded. The chassis is robust.
You are on the right track, as the usual advice for a prospective owner, is to buy as close to stock car, in as reasonable condition as you can afford, drive it, modify it bit by bit as your experience with it grows. Keep the mods relatively modest & enjoy it for what it is, before you tip heaps of time & money into a car, that might be a romantic notion, but doesn't meet practicality goals.

Rgs, Michael

[TC.Barky]

ZUZUKI wrote:

Hi T.C.
Welcome to the world of Suzuki 4WDrives - the most amount of fun you can have for the least amount of money.
Sierra's in particular, but also the original Vitara.

Yes, that is the W/T front spring chassis perch offset.
The story is, that in the good old US of A, there were law suits about the Samurai (our Sierra) being too unsafe, due to rollovers & the average driver not understanding their or the vehicles capabilities & limitations.
The 'fix' by Suzuki, was to widen the track (hence W/T) by 100mm. Pushing the spring mounts outboard by 50mm each side.
This made the car acceptably stable.

Yes, the outer lip (No. 2) is an add on, to cover wider offset rims.
Yes, that is a standard W/T flare, although they are usually painted body colour. They are also steel (apart from the earliest W/T versions) but it is very thin steel (like all Sierra panels) & prone to damage. These may have been repaired & covered in a spray on coating like Raptor liner.


From your initial wish list, I wouldn't completely rule out a Vitara LWB wagon - 1991-1998.
These are IFS with a strut style shock & separate coil spring, but like your long time ago impressions, will go a lot further offroad (with the right mods & driver) than just about anyone with a bigger ('proper' 4WD) car would believe possible.
Much more comfy, capable & safe at highway speeds.
You can easily have your A/C.
Has 1.6efi stock (is the source of the 1.6 that powers many Sierra's), or 2.0litre V6 in later "Estate" versions (1996-98), which can be swapped out for 2.5 or 2.7litre versions from the subsequent Grand Vitara range - plenty of power.
Even auto if you want.
More stable than a Sierra offroad
But ultimately not as capable & you are less likely to be trying to do the extreme stuff Steve is talking about.

But sometimes, if you are set on a type / style of car, then stick to what your heart desires.
I wanted to build a capable hard core bush car - 20 years ago & settled on 2 options - A mucked about with Series One Land-Rover (I've had a few in the past), or a also mucked around with LWB Sierra. (at that time, the only Suzuki experience was the new Grand Vitara we had just bought - & still own)
I bought a Sierra, got about 1/2 way through the build - and one of the reasons it is not finished, is I still have a hankering for that Series One & been distracted by a few Range Rover Classics along the way.

The biggest stability difference between a N/T LWB & a W/T SWB will be felt in steep climbs or descents. A SWB is VERY short - much shorter than what you are used to. You can have a 'moment' in a SWB Sierra that other cars won't even register - I'm thinking short, steep rise out of, or drop into, a creek crossing, hit it wrong in a SWB Sierra & the wheels will be off the ground & you will be feeling you are about to go A over T. A LWB Sierra will give you much less of a 'moment' & your LWB Patrols & Pajeros will hardly wonder what all the fuss was about.
If you are doing "multi-day" high country trips, a SWB Sierra runs out of room quickly - will force you to pack & camp quite differently - not a bad thing in itself, but can be hard to adjust to (a Vitara wagon would also be a winner in this regard).
Many people 'get over' the 'simple charms' of a Sierra & graduate to something bigger with more comfort for the longer trips you do.

But the fun factor will be right up there - you will be surprised how well modern cars (with A/C) insulate you from the bush. A Sierra will let you smell, hear & experience the bush to a much grater degree, but also let the dust & weather in to a greater degree.

Good luck with your search.
Body rust is the biggest Sierra killer, followed by body damage - so body condition is key. All the mechanicals can be replaced & / or up-graded. The chassis is robust.
You are on the right track, as the usual advice for a prospective owner, is to buy as close to stock car, in as reasonable condition as you can afford, drive it, modify it bit by bit as your experience with it grows. Keep the mods relatively modest & enjoy it for what it is, before you tip heaps of time & money into a car, that might be a romantic notion, but doesn't meet practicality goals.

Rgs, Michael

Hey Michael and thanks for the detailed reply, much appreciated. Yes the Vitara was on the list (still is to a degree) but I really would like to get away from IFS. I'm a bit over independent suspension in general (IFS/IRS in the paj, lockers and traction control help but still makes everything hard work - don't get me wrong, still a great car and it can be fun lifting wheels all over the place but I can find it's limit before my own on technical tracks) and want to get back to basics with 4WDing for a while (live axles, manual, lockers). Must say the Sierras look a lot better than the vitaras too but that's really neither here nor there

I will say the safety side of things does concern me about the Sierra, mostly the lack of side intrusion bars. Not planning on letting my kids in it until they are older.

In regards to space, I think it could be a good exercise for me as my current paj weighs 2.8T+ daily so be a good opportunity to think about ways to drop weight and build up a light nippy 4wd. Longer trips with lots of gear can just take the Paj.

[TC.Barky]

Comments on this one? Price is up there, but with all those parts thrown at it (if done well) might be worth it. Depends a bit what else needs doing to get it registered. Barwork looks like it could be on the heavy side but that's easily dealt with if so.

Let me know your thoughts.

https://www.carsguide.com.au/cars-for-s ... ,+VIC--SUV

EDIT: rang him for some more info and it's sold, still interested in your thoughts though if anyone has any.

[Gwagensteve]

Any idea what it actually sold for? That looks like a bunch of hassle to me and $7K is incredibly optimistic. I'd say it's worth about $4.5K on a very, very good day to a very enthusiastic potential buyer. Personally I think it's a $3K car considering the work it needs.

First things that don't ring true - there's no photos of the suspension and there's no "mod plate" for Victoria, only a VASS engineers certificate, which is an assessment of the whole car and lists the affected ADR's. In the case of this car, emissions, seating, and suspension have been changed and require assessment. It's unusual/difficult/impossible to retain EGR, idle ups etc with a Weber, and as a passenger vehicle (not a commercial) it's not sufficient to just assess CO% at idle as far as I know. In my opinion, sos more comprehensive emissions test will be required. An engineer will generally require the car be presented with a RWC certificate in order to gain the certificate (they only cert the relevant ADR changes, not the general roadworthiness of the car). The certificate is only valid for the duration of the car's registration. If the registration lapses, the certificate is invalid. There is a QLD mod plate visible on the firewall, but they aren't relevant in Victoria, so as it sits, it needs to go back to standard, be engineered, or find a very friendly RWC guy and hope the car isn't defected.

The tyres are too large to be engineer approved or pass RWC. (they look to be 235 75 15's - 28")

There are a few different calmini suspension kits. The most common kit is a 5" shackle reverse system that is appallingly bad. Ride and flex are awful. It's not possible to see what kit is fitted in the included photos, but it doesn't look that tall. I don't rate their sierra suspension at all from what I've seen of it. A 5" kit will require stability testing to pass engineering, which it wouldn't pass.

The front bar is an ARB item that's desirable, but it's had the headlight hoops cut off it so now it's not.

The swift seats are mounted incredibly high this is both an ADR issue (Hip point basically can't be changed from stock when new seats are fitted) and an ergonomic issue. It also raises questions about how the seats were mounted.

The new soft top is nice, the car is clean but I think it has previously been built differently - there's a hole in the passenger guard, I assume for a snorkel that is no longer fitted. it appears to have had rubber flares fitted to the factory flares and when paired to the suspension lift makes me think it used to run much bigger tyres.

All up, as a collection of desirable parts, it doesn't have many. As a complete car it can't easily be registered. It also doesn't have any parts that improve off road capability apart from the tyres. (lockers, gears)

I'd want to see a compression and leak down test on that motor. If a G engine has low enough compression to warrant a rebuild they require boring with a torque plate installed, not a hone. They ovalise their bores and as an open deck motor they are very flexible. maybe it's good, maybe it won't last.

There's lots of Sierras around like this other than the clean paint and soft top. They're not worth $7K and you need to have your eyes very open and view them as a project.

[TC.Barky]

Thanks mate appreciate your comments and insight.

Apparently he got what he was asking for so I assume $7k. The few people I've spoken to who have sold recently have all been getting pretty decent money. Not a huge qty of them around right now compared to a couple months ago, possibly why.

[Gwagensteve]

There is a perfect 1.3 trayback in totally stock condition for sale on fb currently for $7250, which is completely reasonable considering the rarity and condition.

If the green car was complete, engineered and registered I still don’t think it’d be a $7k car, but someone might.

[Gwagensteve]

There’s a 1.3 soft top NT in OK condition, just too much lift but plenty of potential and two sets of wheels and tyres for $5k on FB right now too.

[TC.Barky]

Always forget about FB marketplace. Will check there tomorrow. Only been checking carsales and gumtree

[Joe]

That yellow drover trayback on fb atm is fuckin mint spewin i wouldn't fit in it

[Gwagensteve]

I just want to talk about this a bit

Quote:

you are less likely to be trying to do the extreme stuff Steve is talking about.

Whilst I am personally interested in driving technical terrain and my vehicle is extensively modified for that use at the expense of almost everything else, my car ceased providing me with a driving experience anything like a Sierra many years ago.

The unique experience of a Sierra is when it's kept most Sierra like. so that's SWB, soft top, preferably open. As Michael pointed out, the sensations, the smell, the immediacy, and the feedback the car provides are unmatched unless you're looking at something like an early land rover or WWII jeep. As cars have developed over the years they've become bigger, and more insulating, meaning it's harder for the driver to tell what the car is doing. In a Sierra, you're always 100% aware of what the car is doing. People who learned to drive offroad in a Sierra tend to be excellent drivers because you can't be oblivious to what the car is doing. At the opposite end of the spectrum, when I first started 4WDing, the 80 series land cruiser had just been launched and the people who first learned to drive offroad in one of them are doomed. They drive around with absolutely no idea what the car is doing - you can't feel or see what the car is up to so people drive about in a hazy bubble and when it goes wrong golly does it ever go wrong... and then the drivers get out and look all confused about how they got into such a hideous mess.

Sierras are also incredibly capable, so tracks that might be considered "hard" for a larger car don't tend to be much of an issue for a Sierra, even one that's close to standard. Of course, that becomes a bit of an obsession which is completely self defeating - while people with close to standard cars can go out every weekend and have a great time on a wide range of tracks, those of us that have extensively modified cars now drive them very little and have very few tracks that are engaging because of the capability of the cars we have built, so while one of my personal mantras is "why make it look hard" that's only fun when there IS something hard that ultimately you do have to work at. A more standard car give you lots of opportunities to stretch the car and your driving ability and enjoy the car more.

My own car has nearly 100" of wheelbase, 35" tyres, and coil springs. It's super capable but spends most of it's time in my workshop, very little time on the tracks, and I can only think of about 6 tracks I really enjoy driving with it. It's a rolling test bed and thought exercise - it ceased being a proper car years ago. A Sierra on 31's with transfer gears and a locker will pretty much every track in Victoria for little hassle and money. Beyond that it's diminishing returns.

Personally, I think a vitara just feels like a scaled down Pajero or other mid sized wagon. They have enormous potential to be built into a capable and flexible vehicle, but so does a Toyota 4runner/surf or jeep XJ or Pajero for similar money and with arguably a better outcome because the driveline is stronger and the engine more torquey. The limiting factor of the vitara is really the front suspension, but not for the reason you might think.

I often joke that Suzuki forgot how to design suspension after 1988, but they made some "unusual" decisions with the Vitara that were probably cost related and lead to some odd results once you start fiddling with them. They are McPherson strut front, but with a separate coil. What's unique about this is they don't have a rebound stop like every other IFS 4WD I can think of - it's in the strut. There is no physical limit to droop other than the strut. If you space the strut down, droop increases by (roughly) the amount of the strut spacer. longer struts are available which add as much as 40% more wheel travel. It"s not out of the question to see 10" of travel out them - a huge number for a factory based IFS. The end result is there have been plenty of vitaras built that bind CV's and pull driveshafts out of diffs, it's easy to do. Add to that an aluminium front diff housing and third member which are poorly mounted, and a terrible roll axis caused by the rear A frame and front mcpherson strut design, and you have something of a dog's breakfast. They also run really short diff gears (5.12) with 27" tyres, so road performance suffers if larger tyres are fitted and it's not easy to get back. They're bulkier than is apparent (the track width is significantly wider than Hilux) and quite low, which makes them vulnerable. Because they're suzukis they have strong aftermarket support and people are always trying to do things with them they weren't designed to do, so there's deep technical support, but it's ultimately frustrating and expensive to compare one to a Sierra. That said, I have a Vitara gearbox, engine, steering box, axle housings and diffs, springs, and complete wiring loom in my car, so they make pretty good donors.

Steve

[Jack jr]

What the others said about soft tops, my soft top sierra has no doors unless I am taking it to town, no roof and often the windscreen down and it is the great fun, and the visibility is great. I've only got 600 16s (28 inch) and a rear locker and have no problem keeping up with the LandCruisers on 33s except for river crossings.
Cheers Jack jr.

[greenzook89]

My own Sierra, whilst basic compared to some of the cars on here, (Thoroughly detailed in my build thread so no need to repeat mods here) has no issues driving the same tracks that the Sierras on 33s in our club drive, and up until the last 12 months was driven to every wheeling trip.

Keeping it simple doesn't mean it wont be capable, a few choice mods (locker/s, transfer gears/powersteer etc) and you'll have a car that is quite comfortable on the harder tracks as well as being at home on a touring drive.

oh, and +1 for softtop.

[Gwagensteve]

A number of us with highly modified cars kind of wish we had something simple like Redna we could drive anywhere, anytime without it being a major drama. Everybody sets out with that as a goal - the multipurpose cool car - but it's not always where you end up.

[TC.Barky]

Could always get another ha

[Gwagensteve]

No, when I build another 4WD it will be something different that gives me more freedom from ADR's.

[bumstein]

TC.Barky wrote:

Could always get another ha

^ this is the kind of commitment to having more cars that I admire!

Everyone has spare tyres, but spare cars are so much more practical!!

Greenzook’s onto it, he has an impressive track:garage ratio and his ethos on mods are spot on I reckon.

[greenzook89]

Gwagensteve wrote:

A number of us with highly modified cars kind of wish we had something simple like Redna we could drive anywhere, anytime without it being a major drama. Everybody sets out with that as a goal - the multipurpose cool car - but it's not always where you end up.

bumstein wrote:

Greenzook’s onto it, he has an impressive track:garage ratio and his ethos on mods are spot on I reckon.

Naw thanks guys!

[TC.Barky]

Thoughts on early Jimnys? Seen a few kicking around for similar money to Sierras. Pretty fugly stock but with a bit of barwork I could get over it. My understanding from reading is that they aren't generally as strong as the sierras, that correct? Any other major issues? Guess the ideal would be M13A with mechanical transfer?

[Gwagensteve]

They're a bit of a different animal compared to a Sierra.

Pros: much roomier cabin - there's more space in every dimension and the seats are a lot further set back from the firewall.
Most have power steering
They're all EFI
They come in Automatic (see "cons")
They have a longer wheelbase than a SWB Sierra so they climb better
They're coil sprung, but it's not the best design. Better than a coil sierra (but that's not hard)
They are reasonably well supported by the aftermarket
They're much more modern - the wipers work properly, as does the HVAC. They're more comfortable

Cons:
They are LOW - the suspension bracketry is all below the chassis and cops a hiding
They bend front radius arms.
They have quite a high COG in the rear due to the glass, weight of the tailgate etc. It makes them a bit awkward offroad, especially when descending. Obviously, suspension lift makes this worse.
The interior trim/seats etc wears quickly. Old ones feel pretty tired.
They're prone to death wobble.
Those big doors and all that bodywork is vulnerable. Owners seem to spend a lot of time putting plastic body cladding back on.
the wheel wells are small. This leads to aggressive cutting or excessive lift for larger tyres.
The G13BB engine has apparently been known to drop piston skirts, but this would have happened by now. I haven't seen this myself, but I'm aware of people who have.
They all seem to end up over GVM which leads to frequent maintenance and wear.
The automatic is tiny and runs hot. They are hard to keep cool and are failure prone. Replacement units are expensive because of a lack of supply. Keep them cold though and they can live a long and happy life.
They're difficult to gear for bigger tyres without pushing road revs very high.

Lastly, apart from the odd very cheap example, I think they're too much money, but I'm probably not the best judge of this, I tend to think every sierra should be worth 2K, but I regularly see jimny's for $8-9K+ with lots of km's on them that should be under $6K in my opinion.

There are lots of happy jimny owners out there, I think the problem comes if your expectations of offroad performance are based around a Sierra. They're harder to modify and the returns are lower. They definitely make more sense as a road car than a Sierra and the added comfort makes them better suited for longer trips, but then you have to confront the lack of payload.

We have a few in the club - one has been used for extensive outback touring and is very well setup and maintained. We've had them kept close to stock and used for easy trips and a few built up extensively for difficult terrain. I had a drive of Neofitou's Zukini (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=46882) on the top ~400m of Ellis track earlier this year and it was really good to drive - the throttle response and stability were excellent and it ate the track up. Super impressive.