[Jeepmalta]

Hi all, I know hope someone knowledgeable enough is around. I have done the disc brake conversion in my
Lj80 using SJ Hub arms and used the long drag link from the SJ.
No lift all stock and now I have a hard steering. Besides I am experiencing a death wobble ( when it hits bumps the steering feels out of control) some call it bump steer?
Also steering is not returning to center which usually means bad caster or jammed ball joints- as previously noted ball joints are new and caster has not been changed it any way.
Anyhow, to add all things up this was a nut and bolt restoration and I don’t remember how the steering acted prior to the conversion but I owned an lj80 when new in the early 80’s and felt nothing like this.
I’ve put the narrow wheels on in case it got to do with the wider wheels, I’ve re bushed the steering linkage, changed the steering box to what looked a better one then the one it had on, New drag links so all ball joints are new,..it is just driving me crazy. I’m spending more time lying down beneath the car scratching my head rather then using some wrenches.
Thanks to all those who would find some time to give me a helping taught on this one.

[303zuke]

Kingpin Preload needs correcting.

[Jeepmalta]

303zuke wrote:

Kingpin Preload needs correcting.

Thanks 303, have my doubt, but I will check it again..

[Gwagensteve]

How does the steering feel with the front wheels off the ground? Is is very light or is it sticky/stiff?

How is the condition of the universal joint(s) on the steering shaft? these can bind up and make the steering heavy and prevent self centring.

Did you check the "new" steering box for preload, wear and adjustment? If the box was adjusted for correct preload at straight ahead, they will often get very tight off centre due to excessive wear around straight ahead.

Have the knuckle seals been correctly installed? does the steering lighten of the seals are removed or even just the bolts loosened?

There's something amiss though, as 303 points out, death wobble is typically caused by inadequate kingpin preload. (Preload is measured as starting torque at the steering arm, not just as absence of play) this is normally the opposite of tight steering. To have tight steering AND death wobble implies two different problems which is why I asked about the steering shaft and steering box condition as they could be tight whilst also having loose kingpins.

Oh, and death wobble and bump steer are different.

Death wobble is uncontrollable and self perpetuating steering shake. At it's worst, the front wheels of the car can literally bounce up off the road, the front of the car will be shaking so badly.
Bump steer is the measurement of how far the wheels steer away from straight ahead when the suspension cycles. On an SJ, both wheels move left and right as the suspension cycles. On an LJ, the wheels toe in and out as the suspension cycles, due to the inverted Y style of tie rod.

[fordem]

Jeepmalta wrote:

Besides I am experiencing a death wobble ( when it hits bumps the steering feels out of control) some call it bump steer?

Gwagensteve wrote:

Oh, and death wobble and bump steer are different.

I think this is where the discussion should focus - bump steer can trigger death wobble, but, if you've never experienced, or at least, witnessed death wobble, you may not understand that the violent twitch of the steering wheel as/when you hit a bump, is not actually death wobble.

Bear in mind also that a) if the king-pin preload is too high, the bump steer will cause the steering wheel to twitch, and b) if the steering box is too tight, the bump steer can cause the vehicle to swerve violently - both symptoms being very scary to a driver not familiar with them, but at the same time neither one being as scary as a true death wobble, which as Steve defined is "self perpetuating", in some cases you almost have to bring the vehicle to a dead stop to kill the wobble.

[Gwagensteve]

Any progress Jeepmalta?

[Jeepmalta]

Hi guys ,.. thanks again for all the input and excuse me for my late reply, but during the virus outbreak got more busy with my cars.
So here is an update of what I have done upon the above issue.... I had a hard to turn steering, so I got rid of the new (SJ) steering damper which I had installed some time back. Steering now feels much better. Since the steering now turns easier, it also gave me the chance to tighten up the steering box to remove the play in the steering wheel.
However with all this said, the steering still does not return to center.
303 Zuke mentioned the preload on kingpin. I had the kingpin refurbished at a shop and installed it some time before my first post cause this is the first place I looked at when I banged into this issue. If I well remember, I installed it making sure it can turn easy by hand.... I’m doubting myself if this is correct enough?
I had the same issue on a CJ, but new balljoints and some camber correction made it rock...but this LJ, damn so easy yet so complicated.

[Jeepmalta]

fordem wrote:

Jeepmalta wrote:

Besides I am experiencing a death wobble ( when it hits bumps the steering feels out of control) some call it bump steer?

Gwagensteve wrote:

Oh, and death wobble and bump steer are different.

I think this is where the discussion should focus - bump steer can trigger death wobble, but, if you've never experienced, or at least, witnessed death wobble, you may not understand that the violent twitch of the steering wheel as/when you hit a bump, is not actually death wobble.

Bear in mind also that a) if the king-pin preload is too high, the bump steer will cause the steering wheel to twitch, and b) if the steering box is too tight, the bump steer can cause the vehicle to swerve violently - both symptoms being very scary to a driver not familiar with them, but at the same time neither one being as scary as a true death wobble, which as Steve defined is "self perpetuating", in some cases you almost have to bring the vehicle to a dead stop to kill the wobble.

Hi Steve
Agree with you...bump steer and death wobble are not exactly the same although bump steer tends to be very aggressive to handle at a speed.
When you refer to the king pin, you are referring to the center bolt in the steering arm lever mounted to the front of the frame. Am I correct?

[Jeepmalta]

Gwagensteve wrote:

How does the steering feel with the front wheels off the ground? Is is very light or is it sticky/stiff?

How is the condition of the universal joint(s) on the steering shaft? these can bind up and make the steering heavy and prevent self centring.

Did you check the "new" steering box for preload, wear and adjustment? If the box was adjusted for correct preload at straight ahead, they will often get very tight off centre due to excessive wear around straight ahead.

Have the knuckle seals been correctly installed? does the steering lighten of the seals are removed or even just the bolts loosened?

There's something amiss though, as 303 points out, death wobble is typically caused by inadequate kingpin preload. (Preload is measured as starting torque at the steering arm, not just as absence of play) this is normally the opposite of tight steering. To have tight steering AND death wobble implies two different problems which is why I asked about the steering shaft and steering box condition as they could be tight whilst also having loose kingpins.

Oh, and death wobble and bump steer are different.

Death wobble is uncontrollable and self perpetuating steering shake. At it's worst, the front wheels of the car can literally bounce up off the road, the front of the car will be shaking so badly.
Bump steer is the measurement of how far the wheels steer away from straight ahead when the suspension cycles. On an SJ, both wheels move left and right as the suspension cycles. On an LJ, the wheels toe in and out as the suspension cycles, due to the inverted Y style of tie rod.

[Gwagensteve]

Jeepmalta wrote:

Agree with you...bump steer and death wobble are not exactly the same although bump steer tends to be very aggressive to handle at a speed.
When you refer to the king pin, you are referring to the center bolt in the steering arm lever mounted to the front of the frame. Am I correct?

Bumpsteer and death wobble are completely different, and unless there is something very wrong with your steering setup, you should have no more bumpsteer than a regular SJ410/413, which certainly isn't "aggressive to handle"

The king pin is the pivot that the steering knuckle turns on, it's retained by four 8mm bolts on the top and bottom of each knuckle.



In this image, the mechanic is tightening the kingpin retaining bolts.

It should take approximately 2Kg of force to turn the knuckle, measured with a fish or luggage scale through the tie rod end hole of the steering knuckle with the seals removed. That's not consistent with "moving very easily" - it's quite tight. The point you attach the luggage/fish scale is the the hole under the mechanic's left hand in the image above.

95% of death wobble problems are related to kingpin bearing preload.

[Gwagensteve]

Jeepmalta wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

How does the steering feel with the front wheels off the ground? Is is very light or is it sticky/stiff?

How is the condition of the universal joint(s) on the steering shaft? these can bind up and make the steering heavy and prevent self centring.

Did you check the "new" steering box for preload, wear and adjustment? If the box was adjusted for correct preload at straight ahead, they will often get very tight off centre due to excessive wear around straight ahead.

Have the knuckle seals been correctly installed? does the steering lighten of the seals are removed or even just the bolts loosened?

There's something amiss though, as 303 points out, death wobble is typically caused by inadequate kingpin preload. (Preload is measured as starting torque at the steering arm, not just as absence of play) this is normally the opposite of tight steering. To have tight steering AND death wobble implies two different problems which is why I asked about the steering shaft and steering box condition as they could be tight whilst also having loose kingpins.

Oh, and death wobble and bump steer are different.

Death wobble is uncontrollable and self perpetuating steering shake. At it's worst, the front wheels of the car can literally bounce up off the road, the front of the car will be shaking so badly.
Bump steer is the measurement of how far the wheels steer away from straight ahead when the suspension cycles. On an SJ, both wheels move left and right as the suspension cycles. On an LJ, the wheels toe in and out as the suspension cycles, due to the inverted Y style of tie rod.

Can you answer any of the rest of my questions?

[Jeepmalta]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Jeepmalta wrote:

Agree with you...bump steer and death wobble are not exactly the same although bump steer tends to be very aggressive to handle at a speed.
When you refer to the king pin, you are referring to the center bolt in the steering arm lever mounted to the front of the frame. Am I correct?

Bumpsteer and death wobble are completely different, and unless there is something very wrong with your steering setup, you should have no more bumpsteer than a regular SJ410/413, which certainly isn't "aggressive to handle"

The king pin is the pivot that the steering knuckle turns on, it's retained by four 8mm bolts on the top and bottom of each knuckle.



In this image, the mechanic is tightening the kingpin retaining bolts.

It should take approximately 2Kg of force to turn the knuckle, measured with a fish or luggage scale through the tie rod end hole of the steering knuckle with the seals removed. That's not consistent with "moving very easily" - it's quite tight. The point you attach the luggage/fish scale is the the hole under the mechanic's left hand in the image above.

95% of death wobble problems are related to kingpin bearing preload.

Steve, thanks again for your input into helping me here!
I definitely do not have steering shakes, so it is bump steer I am experiencing.

I took note of your explanation on how to set the preload, and the back oil retaining seals off as shown on the picture you posted. This I did not do it myself, so I will go trough it myself as soon as I have some time for my LJ.

You said something seriously wrong with my steering set up - I had an LJ 1 year from new when I was 16, and the steering and handling was nothing near what I have today. One thing that confused me with my LJ is that sometimes the front axle seem to shift about 1cm to one side. This I realized when I installed wider tires and notice that the back tires where not aligned with the front. So I taught it had something to do with the springs since these were messed with in the past by previous owners to gain some lift. So I bought a set of rear SJ410 leaf springs mounted them up and remeasured and re arched the old springs on the front. It helped but for a while, but after a Short drive it seemed to have lost alignment again. I removed everything again since the ride got a bit harsh and found a set of original unmessed with springs And put them back on, but did not continue looking much into it since other issues such as brakes and the stiff steering got in the middle.... the steering stiffness is now much better after removing the steering damper ( new marutti damper Monroe)
With the Front tires lifted off the ground, the steering can be turned with one finger. It takes some effort ( which I feel it normal) to turn the wheels by hand, so it is not stiff, but stiffins a bit when the wheels start to return to center. Wheels gets softer to push when sending them to the sides.

The steering box is in good condition, it is now set with no loose in the steering- this I set a couple of weeks ago after I removed the steering damper. Prior to this the box what set loose and had lots of play in the steering, since I had tried to loose The box due to the steering stiffness.... it sure if this I information can shed any light? By the way I also measured The WHOLE frame to check if there were any accidents in the past and measurements are equal and match exactly the factory book measurements.....

[Jeepmalta]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Jeepmalta wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

How does the steering feel with the front wheels off the ground? Is is very light or is it sticky/stiff?

How is the condition of the universal joint(s) on the steering shaft? these can bind up and make the steering heavy and prevent self centring.

Did you check the "new" steering box for preload, wear and adjustment? If the box was adjusted for correct preload at straight ahead, they will often get very tight off centre due to excessive wear around straight ahead.

Have the knuckle seals been correctly installed? does the steering lighten of the seals are removed or even just the bolts loosened?

There's something amiss though, as 303 points out, death wobble is typically caused by inadequate kingpin preload. (Preload is measured as starting torque at the steering arm, not just as absence of play) this is normally the opposite of tight steering. To have tight steering AND death wobble implies two different problems which is why I asked about the steering shaft and steering box condition as they could be tight whilst also having loose kingpins.

Oh, and death wobble and bump steer are different.

Death wobble is uncontrollable and self perpetuating steering shake. At it's worst, the front wheels of the car can literally bounce up off the road, the front of the car will be shaking so badly.
Bump steer is the measurement of how far the wheels steer away from straight ahead when the suspension cycles. On an SJ, both wheels move left and right as the suspension cycles. On an LJ, the wheels toe in and out as the suspension cycles, due to the inverted Y style of tie rod.

Can you answer any of the rest of my questions?

[Jeepmalta]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Jeepmalta wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

How does the steering feel with the front wheels off the ground? Is is very light or is it sticky/stiff?

How is the condition of the universal joint(s) on the steering shaft? these can bind up and make the steering heavy and prevent self centring.

Did you check the "new" steering box for preload, wear and adjustment? If the box was adjusted for correct preload at straight ahead, they will often get very tight off centre due to excessive wear around straight ahead.

Have the knuckle seals been correctly installed? does the steering lighten of the seals are removed or even just the bolts loosened?

There's something amiss though, as 303 points out, death wobble is typically caused by inadequate kingpin preload. (Preload is measured as starting torque at the steering arm, not just as absence of play) this is normally the opposite of tight steering. To have tight steering AND death wobble implies two different problems which is why I asked about the steering shaft and steering box condition as they could be tight whilst also having loose kingpins.

Oh, and death wobble and bump steer are different.

Death wobble is uncontrollable and self perpetuating steering shake. At it's worst, the front wheels of the car can literally bounce up off the road, the front of the car will be shaking so badly.
Bump steer is the measurement of how far the wheels steer away from straight ahead when the suspension cycles. On an SJ, both wheels move left and right as the suspension cycles. On an LJ, the wheels toe in and out as the suspension cycles, due to the inverted Y style of tie rod.

Can you answer any of the rest of my questions?

[Jeepmalta]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Jeepmalta wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

How does the steering feel with the front wheels off the ground? Is is very light or is it sticky/stiff?

How is the condition of the universal joint(s) on the steering shaft? these can bind up and make the steering heavy and prevent self centring.

Did you check the "new" steering box for preload, wear and adjustment? If the box was adjusted for correct preload at straight ahead, they will often get very tight off centre due to excessive wear around straight ahead.

Have the knuckle seals been correctly installed? does the steering lighten of the seals are removed or even just the bolts loosened?

There's something amiss though, as 303 points out, death wobble is typically caused by inadequate kingpin preload. (Preload is measured as starting torque at the steering arm, not just as absence of play) this is normally the opposite of tight steering. To have tight steering AND death wobble implies two different problems which is why I asked about the steering shaft and steering box condition as they could be tight whilst also having loose kingpins.

Oh, and death wobble and bump steer are different.

Death wobble is uncontrollable and self perpetuating steering shake. At it's worst, the front wheels of the car can literally bounce up off the road, the front of the car will be shaking so badly.
Bump steer is the measurement of how far the wheels steer away from straight ahead when the suspension cycles. On an SJ, both wheels move left and right as the suspension cycles. On an LJ, the wheels toe in and out as the suspension cycles, due to the inverted Y style of tie rod.

Can you answer any of the rest of my questions?

[Jeepmalta]

Jeepmalta wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

Jeepmalta wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

How does the steering feel with the front wheels off the ground? Is is very light or is it sticky/stiff?

How is the condition of the universal joint(s) on the steering shaft? these can bind up and make the steering heavy and prevent self centring.

Did you check the "new" steering box for preload, wear and adjustment? If the box was adjusted for correct preload at straight ahead, they will often get very tight off centre due to excessive wear around straight ahead.

Have the knuckle seals been correctly installed? does the steering lighten of the seals are removed or even just the bolts loosened?

There's something amiss though, as 303 points out, death wobble is typically caused by inadequate kingpin preload. (Preload is measured as starting torque at the steering arm, not just as absence of play) this is normally the opposite of tight steering. To have tight steering AND death wobble implies two different problems which is why I asked about the steering shaft and steering box condition as they could be tight whilst also having loose kingpins.

Oh, and death wobble and bump steer are different.

Death wobble is uncontrollable and self perpetuating steering shake. At it's worst, the front wheels of the car can literally bounce up off the road, the front of the car will be shaking so badly.
Bump steer is the measurement of how far the wheels steer away from straight ahead when the suspension cycles. On an SJ, both wheels move left and right as the suspension cycles. On an LJ, the wheels toe in and out as the suspension cycles, due to the inverted Y style of tie rod.

Can you answer any of the rest of my questions?

And also forgot to say that the steering column has no universal joints,...(I call them crosses) there ain’t any

[Gwagensteve]

I might be missing something, but I can't see any answers. I think I can see you're still using the LJ steering box, which means you must be using the bell crank on the front crossmember.

I'd really like you to respond to my questions rather than post photos without explanation.

Can you answer this one: Is the steering still stiff with the front wheels off the ground?

[Jeepmalta]

I taught I answered you this question- with the wheels off the ground steering it is easy to turn the wheels left and right, but when returning the steering to center it stiffens a bit along the way back to center. But not stiff enough to call it stiff....if you know what I mean.?
Perhaps that little but of stifness with the steering wheel returning to center reflects the non return to center when on the ground?

[Jeepmalta]

GwagenSteve, I taught I answered you this question- with the wheels off the ground steering it is easy to turn the wheels left and right, but when returning the steering to center it stiffens a bit along the way back to center. But not stiff enough to call it stiff....if you know what I mean.?
Perhaps that little but of stifness with the steering wheel returning to center reflects the non return to center when on the ground?

[Jeepmalta]

And yes, there is the original bell crank on the front, which I re sleeved and bushed, and is solid now, with no play or unwanted movement, and turns free, without effort

[sideways]

I recently replaced the steering box on my lj80. All of the sudden the steering got stiff and a bit notchy. With the wheels off the ground the steering was normal which was a bit of a head scratcher. In the end I replaced the steering box and that fixed it. I've had a few LJ steering boxes apart looking to rebuild them and they've all been very rusty inside, I think it got a bit of rust jammed in the worm.

It sounds like you've changed the the sierra style steering linkage with a drag link and tie rod? This will cause bump steer where as the LJs Y link causes a change in toe.

[Jeepmalta]

Hi sideways,
Yes this is what I did. I changed the original linkage to that of a sierra. It seemed the easiest way out at that time when i converted to disc brakes...
I do not remember well if it was possible to still use the original linkage type?

[Jeepmalta]

Sideways,. You made me think about this and I remember I used Hill star's write up to do this conversion. I used the LJ tie rod as a draglink and linked it with the SJ tie rod. ,.. meaning that I created a wider angle due to the longer joining ends, which is now creating bump steer?