[CDD]

What can be done to increase the front and rear flex of a mildly lifted Vitara (SV620)?

Front has stock arms, Dobinsons springs (quoted as 30mm), OME shocks, GV diff housing but no other modifications. Sway bar still in place.

Rear has Dobinsons springs (quoted as 35mm) and OME shocks, but is otherwise stock,. Will be adding some bumpstop spacers, though, as the tyres are contacting the guards, despite a bit of massaging with a hammer.

I'm happy with the height and how it handles, so will stick with the spring/shock combo; just wondering if there's anything else I could do to increase flex and hopefully stop lifting the rear wheel as much.

[alien]

Add air lockers and let the wheels lift =)

[Gwagensteve]

Pull the front sway bar.

The front end of vitaras can flex very well, they have no rebound stops so it’s possible to add strut spacers with OME struts and get ~10” of travel out of them. This will exceed the operating angle of the CV’s at full lock/full droop and will cause the driver’s side stub axle to pull out of the diff, so the LHS axle stubby shaft mod is required. I would recommend diff drop brackets with ANY vitara suspension lift.

In the rear things are a bit different. There is basically no capability gain in increasing rear flex. The suspension geometry generates little traction and rear steers. The spring design and location means the springs will go loose if long shocks are fitted and the end result is a bit of a mess. Springs falling out, no traction on the drooped rear wheel and a lot of bouncing and pig rooting.

Whist I’ve never owned a vitara I’ve done a lot of work on them. They don’t generate much traction from the rear end even when climbing which is why they rarely break rear axles even when they are way too small, and frequently break front parts- they keep the front end loaded up. Exploit that with a locker and quality parts.

[shakes]

Interesting you say pull front sway bar. How badly does it effect handling and balance?
Keeping the front sway bar in my GV I'm confident helped limit flex and kept my CV's relatively intact.

Are OME struts still available new? I couldn't find them in a quick search online.

(my GV is gone, now in SE416 swb, with steel diff/locker/stubby mod. 31's. Gears when other commitments are paid for.)

While I'm hijacking - Any other thoughts on an ideal vitara recipe for vic wheeling?

[Beery]

why the use of strut spacers, gwagen? Is it just to allow bump spacing without loosing travel or is there something else going on. (Is the compression bumpstop in the strut, or on the chassis on a vitara?)

[fordem]

shakes wrote:

Are OME struts still available new? I couldn't find them in a quick search online.

Late in 2021 I was told by several US suppliers that they had been discontinued, I contacted ARB USA directly and was told they were on back order with no eta, recently they have been showing up in small quantities, but I cannot say if this is old stock or new production, I did manage to get a pair, which are at my daughter's place in Florida waiting for me to arrange a pick up.

[fordem]

Beery wrote:

why the use of strut spacers, gwagen? Is it just to allow bump spacing without loosing travel or is there something else going on. (Is the compression bumpstop in the strut, or on the chassis on a vitara?)

The struts limit droop, so spacing the struts down allows more droop, the compression bump stop is chassis mounted, some suppliers say an ARB FK28 bump stop extension should be used with the N103S struts, but the OME application guides only lists this for the JA series XL-7, not for SE, SV or SQ series vehicles

[Beery]

I understand more droop will be had, but the struts total travel is the same. My understanding is you're just trading compression travel for droop, which makes sense if your running larger tyres or something and need to space the bumpstops, but if thats not the case, why the need for strut spacers? Not running them would alleviate the cv issues aswell, but still have the same overall travel?

[shakes]

Beery wrote:

I understand more droop will be had, but the struts total travel is the same. My understanding is you're just trading compression travel for droop, which makes sense if your running larger tyres or something and need to space the bumpstops, but if thats not the case, why the need for strut spacers? Not running them would alleviate the cv issues aswell, but still have the same overall travel?

With no body lift and 31's, need to space bumps down 30-50mm to fit the tires.
Have already dropped the diff 50mm to accomodate lift.
May as well drop the strut to make the most of its travel too.

fordem wrote:

shakes wrote:

Are OME struts still available new? I couldn't find them in a quick search online.

Late in 2021 I was told by several US suppliers that they had been discontinued, I contacted ARB USA directly and was told they were on back order with no eta, recently they have been showing up in small quantities, but I cannot say if this is old stock or new production, I did manage to get a pair, which are at my daughter's place in Florida waiting for me to arrange a pick up.

Thanks. I'll hassle the local ARB and see what I can find.

[fordem]

Beery wrote:

I understand more droop will be had, but the struts total travel is the same. My understanding is you're just trading compression travel for droop, which makes sense if your running larger tyres or something and need to space the bumpstops, but if thats not the case, why the need for strut spacers? Not running them would alleviate the cv issues aswell, but still have the same overall travel?

Looking back at Steve's statement, I'm now curious as to how he arrived at 10" of travel - my measurements on the N103S struts show roughly 6" difference between the open & closed lengths

[Brenno]

10 inch at the wheel I would assume

[CDD]

Thanks for the replies, some great info here!

Gwagensteve wrote:

Pull the front sway bar.

The front end of vitaras can flex very well, they have no rebound stops so it’s possible to add strut spacers with OME struts and get ~10” of travel out of them. This will exceed the operating angle of the CV’s at full lock/full droop and will cause the driver’s side stub axle to pull out of the diff, so the LHS axle stubby shaft mod is required. I would recommend diff drop brackets with ANY vitara suspension lift.

Thanks, that's great to know. Couple of questions:-

1. Are 1" diff drop brackets enough, or should I look for something more?
2. How much should I space the struts by? Maybe I could get away with a strut flip.

Gwagensteve wrote:

In the rear things are a bit different. There is basically no capability gain in increasing rear flex. The suspension geometry generates little traction and rear steers. The spring design and location means the springs will go loose if long shocks are fitted and the end result is a bit of a mess. Springs falling out, no traction on the drooped rear wheel and a lot of bouncing and pig rooting.

Sweet, guess there's no need for me to buy any brackets for the rear struts or a spacer for the rear A arm, then.

Gwagensteve wrote:

Whist I’ve never owned a vitara I’ve done a lot of work on them. They don’t generate much traction from the rear end even when climbing which is why they rarely break rear axles even when they are way too small, and frequently break front parts- they keep the front end loaded up. Exploit that with a locker and quality parts.

Will definitely fit a locker once I've got the rest of the ingredients for the bulletproof front end together.

[CDD]

shakes wrote:

Interesting you say pull front sway bar. How badly does it effect handling and balance?
Keeping the front sway bar in my GV I'm confident helped limit flex and kept my CV's relatively intact.

I broke a sway bar link, drove it around for a month; could barely tell the difference at highway speeds, and you wouldn't know at all in the bush or around town. Mainly still have mine on to keep it legal.

shakes wrote:

Are OME struts still available new? I couldn't find them in a quick search online.

Got mine about 2 years ago, hope they're still available; they're holding up much better than the Dobinsons I used prior.

shakes wrote:

(my GV is gone, now in SE416 swb, with steel diff/locker/stubby mod. 31's. Gears when other commitments are paid for.)

Where did you get the stubby mod done/from?

[fordem]

I don't see it - the strut is attached to the knuckle which is directly behind the wheel, it's on an angle, so to speak, making it the hypotenuse of a right angled triangle, so a vertical measurement of the droop at the point where it bolts to the knuckle is going to be less that the strut travel. Travel at the wheel should be similar to that vertical travel.

For the sake of discussion let's say it's not and we need to factor in the distance between the wheel centerline and the ball joint and get into a discussion on geometry and angles - from approx 6" of travel at the strut to approx 10" at the wheel is a huge difference.

I can see the leverage effect of the control arm having an impact if the strut was located where the spring is, but it's not, it's a lot closer to the end of the control arm - I can see you picking up an inch, at the most two of travel, but not four.

[zuk94]

OME struts were popular years ok. Ive owned 2 sets , the first replaced under warranty because they broke ( shaft wobbling ) and the 2nd set leaked oil . I also have seen them break completely at the top where the thread is , so they aren't a brand I'd be recommending. Bought Iron Man and found they had more travel but replaced them after a while . Can't remember actually why I replaced them but I now have EFS because I got them cheap . My son has just bought some Black Raptor shocks for the front and rear . They measured up the same as OME front struts and the rears I think are perfect for a 2inch lift for both compression and droop. They ride ok as well .
The only time Ive broken a CV was when I had the strut flip done . Had it coming really because I had no diff drop brackets.
I am surprised that Steve says you can't get flex from the rear because most people get their's to flex a lot including me . You do need to use a helm spacer and disconnect those handbrake cable retainers though. If you get too much flex using commodore shocks, the springs can dislodge and damage your brake lines so if you go that far then look at securing the springs to the rear axle housing as a precaution . The Black Raptor shocks I mentioned earlier restrict this from happening which is why I say they are perfect .
After breaking a CV I put my front sway bar back in . I agree with Alien - Put a locker in the front . Don't waste your time with an auto locker in the rear if its a daily driver , apart from driving terrible you'll twist your axel splines.

[fordem]

Who makes these Black Raptor shocks? Do you have a webpage link?

And no, these are not "trick questions", a google search will get me many links to places that I can buy them from, but very little detail on the products themselves.

zuk94 wrote:

My son has just bought some Black Raptor shocks for the front and rear . They measured up the same as OME front struts and the rears I think are perfect for a 2inch lift for both compression and droop. They ride ok as well

There's more to strut/shock selection than open & closed lengths, that in fact, is the easy part, damping or valving is a key factor in ride quality, and one that is often ignored by people (both buyers & sellers) whose focus is on lifts and/or ride height.

I've learned, literally the hard way, that mismatched springs & shocks can make for a very uncomfortable ride.

[shakes]

fordem wrote:

Who makes these Black Raptor shocks? Do you have a webpage link?

And no, these are not "trick questions", a google search will get me many links to places that I can buy them from, but very little detail on the products themselves.

Blackraptor are Jimnybits in house brand. Unsure if they are just rebadged or to their specs.
Had their kit on my GV. shocks were matched to the coils.
City speeds/conditions they did pretty well. But overall they were average for freeway or corrugations or anything rough.
Worked well off Road.

CDD wrote:

Where did you get the stubby mod done/from?

Second hand off here.

I'm starting to build a second diff soon. I 'may' do a run of bearing kits at the same time.

[zuk94]

fordem wrote:

There's more to strut/shock selection than open & closed lengths, that in fact, is the easy part, damping or valving is a key factor in ride quality, and one that is often ignored by people (both buyers & sellers) whose focus is on lifts and/or ride height.

I've learned, literally the hard way, that mismatched springs & shocks can make for a very uncomfortable ride.

Yes total agree , and for my touring vehicle my reason for choice of suspension is different to my Vitara .
My Vitara selection is for best off roading without being silly , which means my priority is for it to flex well and to be honest the damping wasn't given a thought .

A little off topic but what your saying is the reason why it is so hard to chose what suspension to get with my daughters new Jimny , but I'll start a new topic for that.

[Gwagensteve]

Yes fordem, we got 10” at the wheel with OME struts, calmini strut spacers, springs, arms, diff drop brackets and no sway bar. We originally had strut spacers in the car with small bump stop spacers but the CV’s could not tolerate that much droop. We were sufficiently impressed we measured it with the springs out as we were cycling the suspension.

I haven’t seen excessive failures with OME at all, especially compared to Calmini garbage that are stock length and seem to come from the factory failed.

Zuk94, the rear end of a vitara isn’t conducive to lots of flex. The arms are short, the ball joint binds and spacing it raises the already excessively high rear roll centre, and the outboard location of the springs means their motion ratio is very close to the wheel. Even with all the parts (and crazy long springs) calmini throw at them they don’t really do much. Putting long shocks in them necessitates long bump stop spacers and those long calmini springs bind well before the axle can reach the bump stop. Commodore shocks are too long for the suspension design, hence the falling out springs and rear steer they induce, then there’s the issue of them being a light duty shock in a heavy duty application. In any case, once the spring has gone loose, the dropped wheel is just dead weight and offers no useful traction and no aid to capability.

Adding uncontrolled rear flex (ie with loose springs and over length shocks) won't get the car further along a track.